Navigating Nonprofit Careers with Matt Hugg
7/1/2025
“it’s a one place where you can really intersect your skills, whatever
you bring to the table with something you’re passionate about with your mission and and put them together to do something meaningful.
I mean, I think that’s what a lot of people get out of working in the nonprofit sector.”
In episode 126 of Nonprofit Mission: Impact, Carol Hamilton and Matt Hugg discuss the unique landscape of nonprofit careers.
Together, they explore:
what makes nonprofit work meaningful and distinctive, including the opportunities and challenges for those transitioning into or advancing within the sector.
how nonprofit professionals can align their skills and passions,
how to navigate career shifts, and maintain their connection to mission-driven work.
This conversation offers nonprofit leaders practical wisdom on supporting their teams and nurturing their own professional journeys.
Timestamped Highlights:
[00:9:12] The Uniqueness of Nonprofit Careers
How nonprofit careers allow people to combine their skills with causes they care about. He also notes that many people may work for nonprofits without realizing it, especially in large institutions like universities and hospitals.
[00:13:25] Beyond 501(c)(3): The Breadth of the Nonprofit Sector
Carol and Matt explore the wide variety of nonprofit types beyond charities—including associations, credit unions, and even cemetery corporations—highlighting the sector’s surprising diversity.
[00:07:51] Transitioning from the Private Sector
C hallenges faced by people moving from corporate to nonprofit roles, such as bias and misconceptions, and offers advice for building credibility and making a successful transition.
[00:15:11] Networking and Defining Your Niche
The power of networking and being clear about what kind of nonprofit role you’re seeking. He encourages prospective job seekers to connect with people already doing their target jobs.
[00:18:25] Exploring Support Roles and Vendors
Matt suggests that working for businesses that serve nonprofits—like software vendors or consultants—can be a strategic entry point into the sector, offering valuable exposure and connections.
[00:20:01] The Rise of Nonprofit Education Programs
Carol and Matt discuss how nonprofit management degrees and programs have expanded, offering more intentional pathways into nonprofit work compared to the “accidental” careers of the past.
[00:22:30] Moving from Volunteer to Staff: A Shift in Expectations
The shift in mindset required when transitioning from volunteer to staff roles in nonprofits, including the realities of behind-the-scenes work and leadership dynamics.
[00:26:02] Passion, Mission, and Boundaries
They explore how passion for a cause can be both motivating and risky, noting the emotional toll that can arise from job loss or burnout when mission and work are closely intertwined.
[00:27:20] Dispelling Misconceptions About Nonprofit Organizations
Matt and Carol challenge stereotypes that nonprofits are either idyllic or disorganized, underscoring that nonprofits can be just as functional—or dysfunctional—as any business.
[00:32:43] Consulting and Group Decision-Making
Carol highlights how consulting for nonprofits requires understanding group dynamics, since most decisions are made collaboratively with boards and leadership teams.
[00:36:21] Nonprofit Fundraising: Diverse Skills, Diverse Roles
Matt explains the varied nature of fundraising roles, from grant writing to major gifts, encouraging professionals to find their niche rather than assume a linear career ladder.
[00:40:20] Embracing Nonlinear Career Paths
Carol shares her own “zigzag” career trajectory, emphasizing the value of building skills across roles and organizations rather than focusing solely on upward moves.
[00:41:46] Managing Fundraisers: A Need for Education
Matt points out that many nonprofit leaders supervise fundraisers without firsthand fundraising experience, advocating for more education for nonprofit managers.
[00:43:20] Staying Grounded in Mission
Matt encourages nonprofit professionals to stay connected to the people their organization serves, noting that direct exposure to the mission’s impact helps sustain motivation.
Guest Bio:
Matt Hugg is president and founder of Nonprofit.Courses, an on-demand, eLearning resource for nonprofit leaders, staff, board members and volunteers, with thousands of courses in nearly every aspect of nonprofit work. He’s the author of The Guide to Nonprofit Consulting, and Philanders Family Values, Fun Scenarios for Practical Fundraising Education for Boards, Staff and Volunteers. Hugg has held positions at the Boy Scouts of America, Lebanon Valley College, the University of Cincinnati, Ursinus College, and the University of the Arts. In these, Matt raised thousands of gifts from individuals, foundations, corporations and government entities, working with hundreds of volunteers on boards and fundraising committees, in addition to his leadership responsibilities. Matt has taught fundraising, philanthropy, and marketing in graduate programs at Eastern University, the University of Pennsylvania, Juniata College and Thomas Edison State University via the web, and in-person in the United States, Africa, Asia and Europe, and is a popular conference speaker. He has a BS from Juniata College and an MA in Philanthropy and Development from St. Mary’s University of Minnesota. Mr. Hugg has served on the board of the Greater Philadelphia Chapter of the Association of Fundraising Professionals, the Nonprofit Career Network of Philadelphia and several nonprofits.
Important Links and Resources:
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Episode 89: Don’t Skip Gen X for leadership
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Carol Hamilton: My guest today on nonprofit Mission Impact is Matt Hugg. Matt and I talk about the unique landscape of nonprofit arrears. We explore what makes nonprofit work meaningful and distinctive, including the opportunities and challenges for those transitioning into or advancing within the sector. We also talk about how nonprofit professionals can align their skills and passions, and we talk about navigating career shifts and how to maintain your connection to mission-driven work throughout your professional journey.
I appreciated Matt's observation that the nonprofit sector is a career space where you can combine your skills with supporting a mission that you support and you combine your skills with supporting a mission. And I certainly have found that in my career. Many people give advice to those starting out to begin with what you're passionate for.
And certainly though that has shaped my choices. My motivating factor for MO moving into the sector was to work for organizations that were pursuing social change that I supported. Yet I believe passion is insufficient. This is certainly what many learn when they start an organization from scratch.
You have to combine it with a set of skills that you're bringing to the table, or for those early in their careers, it might be talents and interests that can be developed. For me, it was the, for me, I was interested in the realm of organizations working on behalf of children, youth and families, and women, especially those marginalized by our society.
But then you have to apply for a specific job, and in my case, my first job in the nonprofit sector was with the Coalition on Human Needs, and I worked as a program associate. Pretty general title, but the work I actually did was writing and producing our newsletter as well as other organizational communications.
And I helped with our event design and, and planning, my writing and organizational skills came into play. And then with each job transition, I asked myself, what do I wanna do more of and what do I want to do less of, or not at all. And over time I realized I was much more interested in how people do their work.
What got in the way of an organization or a group being effective? What helped an organization pursue its mission with integrity and grace? And this led me to pursuing a degree in organization development where I learned all about how organizations work, how groups work, what motivates people and work, and what are the essential elements of an effective organ organization.
And all of this informs the work that I do now, yet I needed to hone in on what I could uniquely contribute. So the intersection was that with all that I had learned, my experience in the nonprofit sector and my strengths as revealed, revealed my strengths as revealed by the Clifton strengths assessment.
Now the majority of my top strengths were in that strategic thinking domain, so that led me to strategic planning and a program evaluation design. And in the nonprofit sector generally, there are a few major areas of focus program management, and that's the people who are actually doing the work of the organization, actually doing the work of the mission.
Now, this can look a lot of different ways depending on what the purpose of the organization is. For a nonprofit hospital, this would be the medical staff for Stu School, the teachers for a homeless shelter, those who work directly with those that they serve, and those who support those on the front lines for an association.
This could include people providing training and events, education, advocacy. The next function is around communications, marketing, and fundraising. And these people help others understand what the organization does and why it's important and worthy of support. Then there's operation and finance, the people that make sure that everyone has a desk and a pen and a computer and a paycheck, and handles HR issues, and then management, the people supporting all aspects of the organization, and then ultimately working with the board.
If you are just starting out or currently in a career transition, ask yourself what do you want more of and what do you want less of in your next role? The Japanese concept of ika is also helpful for paid work. It looks at the intersection of what brings you joy, what do you enjoy doing, and what are you good at, and what can you get paid for?
Figuring out what is inside that Venn diagram can help you find something that will be more satisfying for work. Now my, one of my favorite things about the nonprofit sector is the people. Generally, I've found it gratifying to work with people whose goal is to help and make the world a better place.
So welcome Matt. Welcome to Nonprofit Mission Impact.
Matt Hugg: Well, thank you. This is great. Always enjoy talking to you, Carol.
Carol: Thank you. So I like to start out every conversation with a question around your why. What, what, what motivates you to do the work that you do? What, what's the reason behind it?
Matt: Well I mean, it's funny, I spent so many years in charitable gift fundraising and, and I, I like doing that kind of work, but I really found a home in education. Not just, I was raising money for education, but actually doing education. And I've, looking back, you know, you kind of say, gee, where where does come?
I mean, I was teaching when I was in high school. We had a program, an environmental ed program where we taught sixth graders, and that was a lot of fun. And there were a lot of things that kind of drew me away from teaching. But when I kind of rediscovered it. In the early two thousands I just saw, yeah, this is a place I want to be and and not just, not just my own teaching.
I like that. Right. But helping other people facilitates it. There's so much good content out there, people who are doing some wonderful things, yourself included. I mean, you know, we have your content on nonprofit courses and, I just, yeah, let's not reinvent the wheel. Let's get the good stuff out there.
Out there.
Carol: So you mentioned the website, nonprofit courses. Nonprofit courses,
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Carol: And that helps people keep up to date in terms of their skills and their careers in the nonprofit. What would you say is kind of unique about careers in the nonprofit sector?
Matt: Oh, well, you know, that's where do we start,
Carol: Right.
Matt: right? Well, you know, it's a one place where you can really intersect your skills, whatever you bring to the table with something you're passionate about, you know, with, with your mission and and put them together to do something meaningful. I mean, I think that's what a lot of people get out of working in the nonprofit sector.
Although I also find it interesting that a lot of people don't know that they're working in the nonprofit sector. It.
Carol: Say more about that.
Matt: Well, you know, if, if you're working for a major hospital, if you're working for a university, I mean, yeah, at some level maybe you, you might think, oh yeah, this is a nonprofit, but it's, they don't quit.
It's not like you're working for the Heart Association or some grassroots organization because nonprofits define themselves through their missions. And, and you know, some people will say, well, it's just a tax status. Yeah. But it's, it's more than that. Still, it, it's, it might not, it might feel more corporate than than a lot of people might expect.
Carol: Yeah, probably. Yeah. A lot will depend on the kind of the, the size and the scope of the organization you're working for. So such a breadth, right, between the tiny volunteer led grassroots organization up to, you know, Harvard University and,
Matt: Yeah.
Carol: nonprofit hospitals. That, that, you know, I think, what are the statistics you can. Maybe you know this better than me, but it's like 70 or 80% of nonprofits are, have budgets of less than, I don't know whether it's
Matt: Oh.
Carol: or $750,000. This is in the US and then there's that 20%, and then there's probably the 1% of that 20%, which is those really, really large institutions which may, you know, not have that kind of, there might not be what people think of when they think of nonprofits.
Matt: Oh yeah. Well, and like here in Philadelphia, the biggest employers in the city are nonprofits between the health system and the
Carol: we
Matt: Education. Higher ed. Yeah. Plus, you know, a lot of folks, I mean, you mentioned what we traditionally think of as c threes here in the US Right. Our Canadian friends might call them just charities, but then.
In the United States. I, I joke with folks, I dunno if this is because we are more sophisticated or just like to comp overcomplicate things, but let's just say we're more sophisticated that we have what is it, 27 different kinds of nonprofit incorporation types, which a lot of places, like in Canada, they would just say those are nonprofits, but they're not charities.
So I'm talking about credit unions. I'm talking about sub mutual insurance companies chambers of Commerce unions. I mean, who says the, not the IRS doesn't have a sense of humor. You know, 5 0 1 c thirteens are cemetery corporations.
Carol: now that I did not know
Matt: Yeah. So there's a lot of, but those, those.
Carol: was having some fun that day.
Matt: E. Exactly. So what really the difference is that if you can draw a circle around the beneficiaries of that organization, and yet they have nonprofit status, then they're probably not a C3.
Religious institutions are always considered c threes but you know, by some definition you can draw a circle around a membership, right. So yeah, I mean there, the nonprofit sector is broader than a lot of people expect too when you include all those other areas.
Carol: Right. Like the folks who put on the Oscars, I can't remember what
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Carol: the. I can't now not remember what the name of that association is, but the president of the association always comes out in the middle of the Oscars. Some very boring dude who's, you know, the lobbyist for the movie industry. But all of those kinds of organizations, the trucking association, the, the, you know. Phlebotomist association that those all exist as well, where they, for a particular profession or particular trade or sector of the economy.
Matt: Exactly, exactly.
Carol: people think of when they think of the local homeless shelter or hung, you know food pantry or. You know, what are, what are
Matt: Yeah.
Carol: You know, the,
Matt: Oh,
Carol: like Habitat for
Matt: The disease organizations. Yeah. Well, and, and the, the thing is people wanna get a definition in their head is if, if people at the top or any, if anybody is, are getting dividends, right? If that kind of implies ownership, then you're not a nonprofit.
Carol: Right. I think that's one of the distinctive features is really that
Matt: Yeah.
Carol: own, even though it's a corporation, no one owns a nonprofit and they're not, you know at least legally and ethically, personally benefiting from
Matt: Right. Exactly.
Carol: they're getting into
Matt: Yeah.
Carol: it's embezzlement
Matt: a conversation for another we, we,
Carol: different conversation,
Matt: That's a different podcast, but yeah, no, that's so when we're talking about careers, people might think, oh, well. Now that they have this information, there's a broader spectrum of organizations to look at and to talk about, you know, where, where they can use their skills.
You know, it's like people, a lot of this happens. People come out of the military or come out of government service, and we're seeing a lot of that these days. There might be an association that is tied to what you do that might be an attractive employer. And, a lot of folks would never consider that.
Carol: Yeah. And then you see a lot of folks, you know, moving into the, you know, after having been in the private sector for a long time, moving over into the nonprofit sector. And I think, I think know, I think they, that there, that can be a more challenging transition than a lot of folks
Matt: Well, yeah, let's, let's grab onto that for a second because this is, this is really important that they're gonna face a lot of times a bias.
Carol: Mm-hmm.
Matt: Now, why is that? Well, if you've been in an or in working for a nonprofit for a mission for a lot of years, and then somebody parachutes in and says, oh, now that I've, you know, sometimes it's, now that I've made my money, now that I've done, you know, this stuff I want to give back, right?
Which honestly. That phrase is always kind of a red flag to me. But you know, can you blame the person on the other side of the desk saying, really, you know, we're, we're your last. Kind of like the option here. The other thing you might think about is that you, chances are you're not gonna walk into a bank someday and say, wow, that manager position is really cool.
I wanna, I'm gonna apply to be that manager and they're gonna consider you seriously.
Carol: Right.
Matt: Right. You know, there are skills involved here. There are things that, now that you might have transferable skills into whatever you're doing. And that's great. I think every job, you know, comes with that.
But don't expect to just have people throw their arms open and say, oh, we've been waiting for you, you know?
Carol: savior from the private sector.
Matt: Yeah.
Carol: Would you say, so if you were talking to somebody who was thinking about making that transition, what would be some of the things that you would say to them in terms of, you know, I. What they might need to learn.
Matt: Yeah. Well, okay, so first of all, I think the best networking is for any job search. A hundred percent what you need to do. The next thing I would say is really be specific about what you wanna do. I mean, think about whatever kind of car you drive. I. And you probably see more of that car out on the road than any other car you see.
And chances are they didn't make that many of them. That's because your brain, your reticular activation system has defined that model type and you know, you know, the year before and the year after and all this kind of stuff. Even if you're not a car person, I'm not a car person, but I see this. And so being able to define that is really important.
'cause then you can. Employ, or let's say enlist other people as your volunteers to go out and there's a, a no. So you're gonna now start getting into doing nonprofit things by making other people volunteer, by giving them this, this kind of icon, this way of looking at what your job search is so that they can bring jobs to you in that networking format.
The other thing when you're networking is to find people who do that job. So if you are an accountant and want to transfer into nonprofit accounting, seek out people who are nonprofit accountants. Find out what their world is like. You know, and you know it's gonna be different 'because they have different standards and all that, right?
But then grab on to the people who have made that transition. And that's really important 'cause they can give you thoughts and advice about how, how they got in, how they made changes and actually might be open to helping you facilitate your transition into either your organization or another one because they can vouch for those skills.
One more thing I would say about people who wanna transition in is look at what I call nonprofit support businesses. So this is a great way of learning about the nonprofit sector, which is, you know, going to a company like a computer, like computer people might go to one of these gift processing companies, you know, computer companies.
And now you are going to get an overview of what the sector looks like, because a lot of times those people have contacts with a lot of nonprofits. And you are still working in the for-profit sector, but you are supporting important missions and eventually might be able to make that next step into a nonprofit job because now you can make the argument, Hey, I've been working with nonprofits, I understand that much better.
Carol: Yeah.
Matt: it may not be a
Carol: ecosystem of
Matt: Oh,
Carol: types of organizations that work
Matt: yeah,
Carol: the sector in different functions.
Matt: And where do you find them?
Carol: yeah. Kind of things
Matt: Yeah, and, and so what, when you look at, where do you find 'em? Go to the association websites for whatever that is, like Association of Fundraising Professionals or Case, right, for Higher ed or whatever. And look at the companies who they call partners.
Carol: Our
Matt: They're usually right, the sponsors, the ones that are on their websites, those are the people, the kind of companies that you will want to connect with to see what those are.
Carol: And I feel like nowadays we're seeing more and more folks come, you know, directly into the field out of college.
Matt: Oh yeah.
Carol: May, you know, I think since I started in the sector many, several decades ago you know, after I started yeah. You know AmeriCorps created the City Year. There was another one
Matt: Well back, back when I, I mean, I, I am of that
Carol: po.
Matt: kind of era
Carol: Yep.
Matt: back in the day there was a program called American Humanics. Now it's changed its name and I'm sorry, I don't know it now, but it had a curriculum that was embedded into a number of universities as kind of a pre nonprofit program, right?
But now you actually find undergraduate degrees in nonprofit management. And, and then of course.
Carol: Unheard of because most people our age, you know, oh, I fell into it, or, you know, I stumbled into it. I made an intentional choice to move into it early. But you know, it wasn't, it wasn't on my radar when I
Matt: Oh,
Carol: college
Matt: Well I started with the Boy Scouts and Oh, because I knew the program and that seemed like an, it was kind of. There is a bit of a story behind that. But anyhow, I ended up as a scouting district executive and that, but I was, my, my bachelor's degree was in geology. I mean, you know, that was
Carol: mine, mine was in history and, and kind of a minor in German, German studies. So enough
Matt: Let's hear it for liberal arts education.
Carol: You can pretty much do anything with that, right? Well, most people would ask me, are you gonna become a lawyer or a teacher? And I was like, oh, are those my only options? I
Matt: Yeah.
Carol: one of those things.
Although of course I ended up in a lot of education, professional education.
Matt: Well, and for me, the mining and oil companies were collapsing. Nobody was hiring anybody. Not like I wanted to go there. And so I had to look for other options.
Carol: Yeah.
Matt: But but you know, it's, a lot of people come in through their discipline, you know, they become a nurse and they drew the short straw on writing a grant proposal.
And, and then the boss came to them again and said, wow, you did so well on that. We got funded. How about the next one? And suddenly they're, they got this whole new skill of writing proposals and because they're maybe a nurse, they have a certain angle on it and they can make a successful career out of that.
Carol: Yeah. Or people who, you know, become involved maybe in a local chapter of an association or some
Matt: Yeah.
Carol: and then end up ultimately on staff with the
Matt: Well, and this is a really good point you bring up because it's important, and I saw this a lot in the Boy Scouts where people would try to make the transition from being a volunteer into being a professional staff member. And that is not as easy as it looks. The expectations are very different.
Suddenly, you know, it's funny, I, my fundraising career, I, I used to tell people, if you can get, get up and say I am number two, right? With enthusiasm, then you might do okay. Because what the point is that a lot of our job was putting the volunteer out front.
Carol: Mm. Right, right. Giving them all the glory.
Matt: Yeah, exactly. And if, and if you're coming in as a volunteer, kind of know, thinking, oh, well, you know, I, and now suddenly, right, right. And now you gotta stand back and push somebody up else, out front. Yeah, that's a, that's a transition. You gotta make that change.
Carol: It is true. And you know, I think of course the expectations around, you know, you're a volunteer, you know, you're, you're giving that it, people know like, oh, life comes up, whatever. It's not the same as being a staff person with a job and an employer and all of those
Matt: Yeah.
Carol: go with
Matt: Well, and, and this comes back to kind of fundamental human nature. I forget the book I used to teach out of, I wanna say it's the high Price of materialism, but it may have been Daniel Pink's drive.
Carol: Mm.
Matt: the point was that that there is a difference between doing something willingly and getting a paycheck for it
Carol: Right.
Matt: and, and, and the paycheck.
Twists that differently for somebody. So the expectations are different. You have I dunno, it's just a whole different mindset that comes to that. And you might, like, I had a good friend years ago who worked at a bicycle shop. He loved bicycling. I think it really took that out of him,
Carol: Mm
Matt: to deal with it.
Yeah. Right. And he eventually ended up working in a hospital and got back to bicycling because it just really, it took that enthusiasm from him because it became his job rather than something that he really loved. So you gotta look for that. You gotta, you know, stand back and say, gee, is this something I want to do as a professional?
Carol: Right full-time and with all the,
Matt: Yeah.
Carol: and heartaches that comes
Matt: Yeah.
Carol: with, with that.
Matt: Well, and the, the risk of, I mean, we saw this in fundraising a lot where people would be very dedicated to whatever mission that was, and for some reason, and all sorts of reasons why people get let go in fundraising, and not always for the numbers, but it's almost like being voted off the island, you know?
And, and gosh, you're so into it. You have this passion for that mission and suddenly. You are out and now you know there. That's, I think, a bigger emotional toll on people when they're working for a nonprofit than for a business.
Carol: Yeah, especially when the nonprofit or the whole organization has really leaned on the fact that people are dedicated to the mission, which,
Matt: Yeah.
Carol: sometimes can allow you know, or account for the pay not being very high
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Carol: Good, you know, working conditioning, not being great. But we do it for the mission, you know, and, and that's. And you know, it, it does, it does have a different emotional connection for folks if, if they come into it through the mission side. And it was
Matt: Yeah.
Carol: me because I, I felt like when I was first kind of talking to people about the sector, there was a lot about like, find your passion and what are you passionate about?
And I mean, I certainly worked for causes. That I believed in. I mean, that was my
Matt: Yeah.
Carol: to shift from a for-profit where we were kind of publicizing all takers, you know, and all comers and to
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Carol: If I'm gonna do this kind of work of getting an idea out in the world, I want to be supporting the ones that I actually, you know, can support and believe in. But over time. I found that it was really about the function that I was working in that was more important to me than necessarily the exact mission. I mean, I was within a, you know, a range of, you know, working for the benefit of people, the benefit of children, youth and family for education, those kinds of things.
But the very, I wasn't, some people come in with a very specific notion about a very specific mission, and then I think.
Matt: Yeah.
Carol: There's the other side of like, well, what is the work that we're actually doing together? And, and for me it was then about how we can actually make all of that work better?
Matt: Well, and, and you've kind of tripped another synapse for me, which is that, that it's not, A lot of people have an idea that you know, nonprofits might be disorganized or they people come in and it's all kumbaya, you know, and everybody loves each other, right. Well, first of all, I know a lot. I know for-profit business, I come from a small business family.
I have seen dysfunctional for-profit businesses,
Carol: right. Can we, can we say that again? Because
Matt: yes.
Carol: that just because something is a for-profit, that they are functional, efficient, you know, all of, I'm like, no, it's just another
Matt: no,
Carol: They're doing it for a different purpose, but that does not give them some magic ability.
Matt: It really doesn't, and it's, and you will find very corporate nonprofits. And in fact, I, there's an organization here in the Philadelphia area. That I interviewed with years ago, that everybody kept on referring to the headquarters building as, oh, you have to ask corporate about that.
Carol: There you go.
Matt: It was like, oh, okay. I get the culture now. Right? And then, there are also some very well-organized nonprofits that really have it together, just like. Well organized businesses that have it together. Right. And the difference is they, they just have that double bottom line, you know? Yeah. They have to be financially solvent, but they also have a mission to deliver.
I. And, and so a lot of folks will say, well, why did they make that decision? Well, that comes to the mission side. Maybe it doesn't look like a smart financial decision, but when you look at their mission, it makes perfect sense. And now they have to work out the finances to be able to deliver that.
Yeah, it's and then of course, you know, like anything you get people who can be, grumpy and not, and, and all the, the negative human emotions that come with a workplace or that somebody thinks that you know, they, you, you get some, I mean, there's the whole thing, the founder syndrome, right?
Which by the way, I have seen in business as well as nonprofits,
Carol: a whole, they made a whole TV series about it succession,
Matt: Yeah,
Carol: but.
Matt: yeah. No, I, yeah, exactly. You know, you, you get people who, who just feel like, in fact, and I know folks who have kind of walked on the edge of that, I would say maybe sometimes the wrong side of that line, where they have jiggered the the bylaws so that they as a founder cannot be ousted, which, that's a whole day. We'll, you put that in that other podcast we'll do someday. But no, the point is though, don't expect it to be this ideal nonprofit culture that you might imagine. It's
Carol: I
Matt: gonna.
Carol: I think that there are a couple different misconceptions that people have about nonprofits that yes, it's gonna be this kumbaya wonderful idyllic, i, I, you know, idyllic where everyone gets along and we're all working towards submission and Sure. I'm sure that sometimes happens.
And,
Matt: Yeah.
Carol: or the flip side of it is that it's you know. Kind of loosey goosey or not organized, or, and I
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Carol: You know, that probably comes, I mean, there's always a grin, grain of truth in, in any stereotype, so, right. If, if some huge percentage of the nonprofit sector essentially like little mom and pop organizations with a few people involved, they're not gonna have robust systems. You know, they just don't have enough people. All of that to, to kind
Matt: Well, and, and think about why people might form a nonprofit or why they get sent to leadership in a nonprofit. It's usually because they have some passion for the mission.
Carol: Right.
Matt: And, and you know, they, the the best in
Carol: at a particular part of the organization too.
Matt: Well, right? Yeah.
Carol: In a for-profit business where, you know,
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Carol: you're a really good engineer, so we should make you managers of engineers.
Matt: Yeah. And, it's funny that you bring that up 'cause I used to work a lot with General Electric people and they had, at the time where I was a, they recognized that problem and trained engineers into, you know, doing good things as personnel managers. But a lot of nonprofits don't don't avail themselves of that.
They think you know, you're the best environmental scientist we have and you've always wanted to be an environmental scientist and now you're the head of this environmental science nonprofit, but now there's all these pesky donors. You have to deal with accounting, you have personnel issues.
I mean, it's, you know, we see this higher.
Carol: Except psychology maybe.
Matt: Yeah, right. Exactly. Yeah. I always found it funny 'cause years ago I worked at a place where we had, a woman who was an, who had just gotten her MSW and she was with us on a temporary basis and she was great. I mean, she did so many things for us and I came to think, wow, everybody needs an MSW on their staff.
Carol: And, and just for, for organizations and remember that every MSW has to have an internship. So you can set up internship programs. Obviously you have to have somebody, you can be their supervisor and do that from an MSFW perspective. But it's a great resource.
Matt: Yeah, we, we never worked better as a, as a group until she showed up and started getting,
Carol: helped your, your your your group dynamic and team
Matt: yeah.
Carol: Yeah. Yeah.
Matt: So, yeah. But yeah, the, and it's looking at some things we said we're gonna talk about here, but you, you know, there's the nonprofit sector does, I mean, I hope, I hope people aren't co coming away from this saying, oh gee, I don't wanna work in the nonprofit sector. Right. What I'd like you to come away with is just have your eyes open.
You know, I think that's really important to do that because there's a lot of great opportunities and, and in fact, like any niche, right? There are people who are, we might informally call them headhunters. In this area, right? Search firms that focus on nonprofits and then even some that focus on specific niches of that.
In fact, yesterday I was talking to a lawyer whose whole practice is not only focused, it is really weird. Well, to me it was weird for him. You know, it's one of these things that kind of hits the side of your head and says, oh yeah, of course. Right. Not just nonprofits, but private school nonprofits,
Carol: mm-hmm. there are a
Matt: which.
Yeah, which you can niche down on. I mean, a whole other thing we didn't talk about was doing consulting, right? Being a freelancer or a vendor is not just working for another company that way, but being an independent freelancer or consultant to nonprofits in whatever you do.
Carol: I do, I think most of the people that I know who do consulting worked at a nonprofit before. And so they have that, that understanding of the culture, maybe less so in the tech sphere where they're, you know, those specialized technical skills. But I think, you know, from my consulting people often when they're the, and it's always groups that are hiring you, right?
Just like whether you're coming in as an employee or or a consultant, any kind of role it's going to be a group decision. And I think that's the other thing that makes it kind of different from you know private organizations is that. All, there's always a group involved. There may be, certainly , an executive director who has some sphere of, you know, decision making, but oftentimes, you know, they have to work with their board around that, their senior leadership team. It's often much more many more people involved in a co, in, in a decision than maybe, you know, when, when you know, a company where the executive direct the CEO is just able to kind of make decisions by fiat.
Matt: Well, okay, so you brought up a couple things there really worth getting into. So one of them is yes, for sure, the group thing. However, it's interesting that in our culture, we are nonprofit boards, really you, you don't have to be an expert in your mission to be on a nonprofit board. Which, you know, the idea is that you wanna kind of democratize it and have people come in there.
But the other problem is though, that you have people who don't understand what they're running.
Carol: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Matt: And, and so the education is really huge on that point too, to make sure the board not only knows your mission, but let's say they're the fundraising committee that they know about fundraising. Right. And, and that there are others, and there, there are areas like I have seen, in fact, I think you and I would know to name her right here. But I know people who have come in from sales, for example, and gotten into fundraising, never worked for a nonprofit at all until they started doing consulting.
And that I think is, you know, good news, bad news. 'cause I, I would argue that sales is not. Fundraising. Which kind of will take me to another point, but there's a there, there's an openness sometimes, especially at the board level of bringing in people who are not traditionally part of that sector.
And that may or may not work for you. Now, if I could, about the sales and fundraising thing, fundraising is fascinating to me. Not just, I mean, because doing it, but, but there's a whole broad range of things that qualify as fundraising, right? So, you know, there's, there's direct mail. I mean, let's go up the scale we might say, right?
You know, there's putting the coins in the con convenience store box, right? Which I call passive solicitation, which I think is the least interactive. And then. Direct mail and emails and electronic fundraising, and then getting into websites, but then there's corporate relations, and then there's major gift, you know, direct.
And then there's planned giving, which is like the highest type, right? Each of those has a different skill set that comes to the table for them. So the point is that don't say, oh, well I can't be a fundraiser. I don't, and oh, prospect research, that's another one, right? No, you can fit into this world here.
It's just that, you know, you have to know where your niche is that way, and your personality may not be, I, I would say somebody who goes out and solicits major gifts is not going to be the person you want writing your solicitation letters there,
Carol: or writing your grants.
Matt: or maybe even writing your grants or doing, you know, other stuff like that, right?
I mean, there's just a whole, so,
Carol: So even
Matt: I.
Carol: One functional area, there's a huge range of skills that might be used. I think probably another one that would be analogous to that would be, you know, I mean, there's all the different elements of communications and marketing, but then in program, you know, depending on that will be most directly connected to the mission.
And so that, again, will, will have, you know, a whole range of skills
Matt: Yeah.
Carol: and personalities that really lean towards any aspect of that.
Matt: Now there's, and so that, that's worth keeping in mind as you're thinking about your career. Well, the other thing too is that when you talk about career folks, at least I, I still think this happens. They think of a linear progression upward right.
Carol: Mm-hmm.
Matt: But there are a lot of lateral progressions that are very valuable actually and financially.
Okay. Right. I think of fundraising you might. Get. It's funny, a lot of people come into fundraising, especially they come out outta college and they, maybe they've been helping with the hon
Carol: Right.
Matt: They've been helping in the office and collating annual fund letters. And so the first place they go is the annual fund and the next thing they want to do is move up out of that into, you know, some other role.
A bigger role. Right? More prestigious role. Well, you know. There is, I, I would argue that some of the worst fundraising I've seen are higher ed annual fund letters. Not blaming the people who write them, but blaming the fact that they, these organizations don't. They, it, it's always been this chain upward and the people are really looking, they're not studying this as a field because if you go to direct marketing association people, that can be a serious ni lifetime niche in working with direct mail and and now email and social media and all that, that has its own thing going.
That can be really valuable that you don't have to necessarily move up to and out to a major gift job. So yeah, looking at these lateral things planned giving, that's another place actually that people from the outside can get into if you've been dealing with trust departments and banks, right?
If you have experience that way, you know, you already know what gift annuities are with charitable lead trusts are how if people leave money in their wills, you know.
Carol: Yeah, there's a lot of technical information in that as well. Yeah, I mean, for me, you know, I worked for a lot of small organizations and there wasn't necessarily room to move up, if you will. And so I moved to different organizations sometimes doing something similar, but with a, you know, a little bit of a new twist. And so they were, I don't know if they were strictly lateral, but they were also, weren't this way, so they were maybe this way.
Matt: Yeah.
Carol: Kind of a zigzag, if you will. And then, you know, I made a choice at one point to shift from doing marketing communications over to what I do now around organization development.
I took a stop on the way through training and learning and development as kind of a stepping stone. And so I think, you know. I think people always, they, they often want to hire somebody who's already done the thing, but you
Matt: Yeah.
Carol: have the opportunity to learn. So finding like, what, what is it that I still want to do?
What did I really enjoy? What do I wanna let go of? What do I wanna do more of? Is always something that I ask myself as I move from place to place.
Matt: Well, and, and something else to think about is what's the nature of your boss's work? Now, again, back to fundraising, that's my experience. Right. But I would think so, I don't have the numbers here, right? But the far majority of the people who raise money for nonprofits are not being supervised by anybody who ever raised money for nonprofits.
And so what does that mean? Their expectations are very different because they don't have the experience in that. Or if they do, you know, I mean, when I was working in some nonprofits, the boss was as effectively a volunteer. And so if you put, if, if you brought them to see a donor, it was just like bringing a volunteer and you pushed them forward and they had the feeling that they raised the money, even though they were just there at the end to, you know, make help with the ask or something.
Right. And so their vision of what you do is different. So knowing that, going in and understanding that yeah, they may not actually get what I do or they need education, I, I would. I'd love to see some kind instead of a what, CFRE, right? I mean yeah. That's important, right? The fundraising certification.
But to have a manager of fundraiser certification that people,
Carol: the like, you know, basics overview for managers of a, of a field. Well, as
Matt: yeah.
Carol: Come to the end here, what's one thing you wish more folks in the nonprofit sector as they're thinking about their careers would ask themselves to be really strategic about how they're moving forward?
Matt: I'm gonna play. I want them, I think they should think, why haven't I gone to nonprofit career courses.com?
Carol: Right. Exactly.
Matt: That's my, that, that's my search page for career stuff. But no. I think what's the thing they have to ask themselves, I mean, as they're considering their career, is this something I can do, am I going in with my eyes open?
Am I being realistic about my expectations here? You know, it, it, it, it's going to be hard if they. Like, like we talked about, come in and feel everybody's gonna be, you know, nice and fuzzy and soft. Right? And that there won't be expectations that they'll be the first person out there instead of being the second person behind the first person.
Right. And that but also keeping that mission. It's all about the mission, right? And, and that's the other thing too, that I'd say is that the more contact, even if you're an accountant or a gift processor or a researcher or whatever, the more contact you can get with the end user, the people you benefit from, that's gonna sustain you, that because you're gonna s.
Carol: 'cause when you talked about all those, those challenges for me it was always coming back to, well, why, why are we doing all of this?
Matt: Yeah. Yeah.
Carol: with this volunteer challenge here or this personnel challenge here, and, but why ultimately are we doing this work?
Matt: Well, I, I've worked in fundraising offices that were right off the main part of the organization where the clients came in and those who were off site and we didn't have contact. And yeah, it in some respects, it says, oh well they're fundraisers. You can put them over here 'cause we need this real estate for something mission related.
Right. But it was such a mistake because now you've disconnected these people from the passion from what, where they need to be raising their money from
Carol: Yeah.
Matt: and, and I think that has a lot to do with a lot of the other parts of an organization that aren't directly program oriented. They need to have some kind of connection somewhere.
Carol: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Matt: Yeah.
Carol: Well, thank you so much, I really appreciate all your thoughts and perspectives on this.
Matt: no. Glad, glad to do it. You know like I said, I'm, I'm all about education and fundraising. I really, you know nonprofit courses and I say.courses, you can call it nonprofit courses. I just, it's a URL, right? That way, there's no doubt. Comment on it.
Carol: And
Put a link in the show notes for it, so,
Matt: Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I really want folks to go there just because I think there's a lot of education they can have and it's open access.
They don't have to sign up for anything, although please sign up for the newsletter.
Carol: absolutely. Well, thank you so much, Matt.
Matt: Thank you, Carol. Always a pleasure. Talk to you later.
Carol: Just to
affirm that I actually have done it. So welcome Matt. Welcome to Nonprofit Mission Impact.
Thank you. So I like to start out every conversation with a question around your why. What, what, what motivates you to do the work that you do? What, what's the reason behind it?
So you mentioned the website, nonprofit courses. Nonprofit courses, and that helps people keep up to date in terms of their skills and their careers in the nonprofit What would you say is kind of unique about careers in the nonprofit sector?
Right.
say more about that.
Yeah, probably. Yeah. A lot will depend on the kind of the, the size and the scope of the organization you're working for. So such a breadth, right, between the tiny volunteer led grassroots organization up to, you know, Harvard University and, nonprofit hospitals. That, that, you know, I think, what are the statistics you can.
Maybe you know this better than me, but it's like 70 or 80% of nonprofits have budgets of less than, I don't know whether it's $750,000. This is in the US and then there's that 20%, and then there's probably the 1% of that 20%, which is those really, really large institutions which may, you know, not have that kind of, there might not be what people think of when they think of nonprofits.
We now that I did not know
I was having some fun that day.
Right. Like the folks who put on the Oscars, I can't remember what the. I can't now not remember what the name of that association is, but the president of the association always comes out in the middle of the Oscars. Some very boring dude who's, you know, the lobbyist for the movie industry.
But all of those kinds of organizations, the trucking association, the, the, you know. Phlebotomist association that those all exist as well, where they, for a particular profession or particular trade or sector of the economy. people think of when they think of the local homeless shelter or hung, you know food pantry or.
You know, what are, what are You know, the, like Habitat for Right. I think that one of the distinctive features is really that own, even though it's a corporation, no one owns a nonprofit and they're not, you know at least legally and ethically, personally benefiting from they're getting into it's embezzlement, different conversation, Yeah. And then you see a lot of folks, you know, moving into the, you know, after having been in the private sector for a long time, moving over into the nonprofit sector. And I think, I think now, I think they, that there, that can be a more challenging transition than a lot of folks Mm-hmm.
Right.
savior from the private sector. what would you say so if you you were talking to somebody who was thinking about making that transition what would be some of the things that you would say to them in terms of you know I What they might need to learn Yeah ecosystem of types of organizations that work the sector in different functions yeah Kind of things Our And I feel like nowadays we're seeing more and more folks come you know directly into the field out of college may you know I think since I started in the sector many several decades ago you know after I started yeah You know AmeriCorps was created city Year there was another one po Yep unheard of because most people our age of you know oh I fell into it or you know I stumbled into it I I made an intentional choice to move into it early But you know it wasn't it wasn't on my radar when I college Yeah Yeah mine mine was in history and and kind of a minor in German German studies So enough You can pretty much do anything with that right Well most people would ask me are you gonna become a lawyer or a teacher And I was like oh are those my only options I one of those things Although of course I ended up in a lot of education professional education Yeah Yeah Or people who you know become involved maybe in a local chapter of an association or some and then end up ultimately on staff with the Mm Right right Giving them all the glory It is true And you know I think of course the expectations around you know you're a volunteer you know you're you're giving that it people know like oh life comes up whatever It's not the same as being a staff person with a job and an employer and all of those go with Mm Right Mm Right full-time and with all the and heartaches that comes with with that Yeah especially when the nonprofit or the whole organization has really leaned on the fact that people are dedicated to the mission which sometimes can allow you know or account for the pay not being very high good you know working conditioning not being great but we do it for the mission you know and and that's And you know it it does it does have a different emotional connection for folks if if they come into it through the mission side And it was me because I I felt like when I was first kind of talking to people about the sector there was a lot about like find your passion and what are you passionate about And I mean I certainly worked for causes That I believed in I mean that was my to shift from a for-profit where we were kind of publicizing all takers you know and all comers and to if I'm gonna do this kind of work of getting an an idea out in the world I want to be supporting the ones that I actually you know can support and believe in but over time I found that it was really about the function what I was working in that was more important to me than necessarily the exact mission I mean I was within a you know a range of you know working for the benefit of people the benefit of children youth and family for education those kinds of things But the very I wasn't some people come in with a very specific notion about a very specific mission and then I think There's the other side of like well what is the work that we're actually doing together And and for me it was then about how can we actually make all of that work better right Can we can we say that again Because that just because something is a for-profit that they are functional efficient you know all of I'm like no it's just another They're doing it for a different purpose but that does not give them some magic ability There you go they made a whole they made a whole TV series about it succession but I is I think that is couple different misconceptions that people have about nonprofits that yes it's gonna be this kumbaya wonderful idyllic i I you know idyllic where everyone gets along and we're all working towards submission and Sure I'm sure that sometimes happens And or the flip side of it is that it's you know kind of loosey goosey or not organized or and I you know that probably comes I mean there's always a grin grain of truth in in any stereotype so right If if some huge percentage of the nonprofit sector essentially like little mom and pop organizations with a few people involved they're not gonna have robust systems You know they just don't have enough people All of that to to kind Right at a particular part of the organization too in a for-profit business where you know you're a really good engineer so we should make you managers of engineers except psychology maybe And and just for for organizations and remember that every MSW has to have an internship So you can set up internship programs Obviously you have to have somebody you can be their supervisor and do that from a from an MSFW perspective But it's a great resource helped your your your your group dynamic and team Yeah Yeah Right Mm mm-hmm. I do, I think most of the people that I know who do consulting worked at a nonprofit before. And so they have that, that understanding of the culture, maybe less so in the tech sphere where they're, you know, those specialized technical skills. But I think, you know, from my consulting people often when they're the, and it's always groups that are hiring you, right?
Just like whether you're coming in as an employee or or a consultant, any kind of role it's going to be a group decision. And I think that's the other thing that makes it kind of different from you know private organizations is that. All, there's always a group involved. There may be, certainly , an executive director who has some sphere of, you know, decision making, but oftentimes, you know, they have to work with their board around that, their senior leadership team.
It's often much more many more people involved in a co, in, in a decision than maybe, you know, when, when you know, a company where the executive direct the CEO is just able to kind of make decisions by fiat.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
or writing your grants.
So even in one functional area, there's a huge range of skills that might be used. I think probably another one that would be analogous to that would be, you know, I mean, there's all the different elements of communications and marketing, but then in program, you know, depending on that will be most directly connected to the mission.
And so that, again, will, will, will have, you know, a whole range of skills and personalities that really lean towards any aspect of that.
Mm-hmm. Right.
Yeah, there's a lot of technical information in that as well. Yeah, I mean, for me, you know, I worked for a lot of small organizations and there wasn't necessarily room to move up, if you will. And so I moved to different organizations sometimes doing something similar, but with a, you know, a little bit of a new twist.
And so they were, I don't know if they were strictly lateral, but they were also, weren't this way, so they were maybe this way. Kind of a zigzag, if you will. And then, you know, I made a choice at one point to shift from doing marketing communications over to what I do now around organization development.
I took a stop on the way through training and learning and development as kind of a stepping stone. And so I think, you know. I think people always, they, often want to hire somebody who's already done the thing, but you have the opportunity to learn. So finding like, what, what is it that I still want to do?
What did I really enjoy? What do I wanna let go of? What do I wanna do more of? Is always something that I ask myself as I move from place to place.
the like, you know, basics overview for managers of a, of a field. Well, as come to the end here what's, what's one thing you wish more folks in the nonprofit sector as they're thinking about their careers would ask themselves to be really strategic about how they're moving forward?
Right. Exactly.
'cause when you talked about all those, those challenges for me it was always coming back to, well, why, why are we doing all of this? with this volunteer challenge here or this personnel challenge here, and, but why ultimately are we doing this work?
Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much, I really appreciate all your thoughts and perspectives on this.
And put a link in the show notes for it, so,
absolutely. Well, thank you so much, Matt.
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