Elevating Nonprofit Governance and Leadership with Mary Reeves
6/3/2024
““[Board members’] testimony about the transformational experience they’ve had serving reminded me that these high level professionals... these are people who are subject matter experts in their field and they’re high quality.
They’ve been in leadership positions in their own fields. They still have a transformational experience [when they] come into a system where they understand what their role is together with staff and how that becomes a more ...meaningful experience.””
In episode 99 of Nonprofit Mission: Impact, Carol Hamilton and Mary Reeves, PhD discuss:
the importance of effective governance in nonprofit organizations.
the transformational experiences board members often undergo
the Japanese concept of Ikigai—finding purpose through what you love, are good at, what the world needs, and what you can be paid for.
Mary's reflections provide valuable insights into the complex dynamics of nonprofit governance and the importance of continuous learning and integration for effective nonprofit organizational leadership.
Episode highlights:
Ethical Nonprofit Governance
- [00:06:00] The importance of ethical and proper governance in educational organizations.
The Concept of Ikigai
- [00:07:20] The Japanese principle of Ikigai and its four components: what you love, what you are good at, what the world needs, and what you can get paid for.
Building positive Nonprofit Board and Executive Director Relationships
- [00:08:35] The importance of fostering positive relationships between the board and executive directors.
Transformational nonprofit board experiences
- [00:011:34] The transformational experience board members often undergo.
Managing Conflicts of Interest and Fiduciary Responsibilities
- [00:18:26] The inherent conflicts of interest in many association boards and the importance of understanding fiduciary responsibilities.
Elevating Nonprofit Board Service
- [00:22:20] The high stakes of decision-making in board service and how it can be a transformational experience by rising above personal experiences and biases in board service.
Progress over perfection
- [00:28:43] Leaders should recognize they cannot do it all and should focus on progress rather than perfection.
Guest Bio:
Mary H Reeves, PhD
Mary Reeves is the retired executive director of the Commission on English Language Program Accreditation (CEA), the current public member on the Council on Academic Accreditation of ASHA, and a member of the NAFSA: Association of International Educators Board of Directors Governance Committee. Her non-profit board experiences span 50 years, both on the board-side in local service organizations and national leadership positions in professional associations in English language and international education, and in staff-side associate and executive director positions. She now focuses on effective transitions, proactive mentoring, and how to maximize contributions of knowledge, experience, and passion while gracefully passing the torch. Mary holds a PhD in higher education policy studies with a primary focus in international education and a secondary focus in organizational behavior.
Important Links and Resources:
Leadership without Easy answers by Ronald Heifetz
BoardSource
Related Episodes:
Episode 15: The Nonprofit Executive director – Board chair leadership
Episode 42: Building shared governance
Episode 55: Helping nonprofit boards move toward greater equity
Episode 61: Impactful nonprofit boards
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Carol: Welcome, Mary. Welcome to Mission: Impact
Mary: Good morning, Carol. It's great to be with you. Thanks for inviting me.
Carol: So I usually start each episode with the question of what drew you to the work that you do, what motivates you and what you would, what you would describe as your why. I know Mary, you're officially retired, though you're still professionally active. What would you say is, what would you describe as your why through, through your career and, and now as you stay professionally involved?
Mary: I grew up in farming country in Kansas and when I first became interested or learned about international education when I went off to college, the world opened up for me and nothing else seemed interesting. And so I became involved in international education initiatives. And as part of that early in my professional life, I became involved in a state with a standard setting initiative for this field of English language teaching and learning.
And I knew early on that I had administrative chops, I was a planner and organizer. I was able to, I think, make, bring people together, make things happen. So I began to see that this is the way I could make a contribution to my field. And I'll tell them. the world, get to interact with these international students and then have a system or a way, a set of organizations to work with that would benefit the quality of their education.
And so I became pretty interested in trying to see that happen in a proper way. It led me through many decades in a series of professional engagements, both profession wise and then what I'll call vocation wise calling, as a calling to working in these with boards of people who were composed of knowledgeable experts in the field I was interested in.
And then seeing how that all got managed in a way that was ethical and proper. And so my why I, it's hard to explain it, but it really appeals to me to see things done well, to see a well governed board, to see meaningful work by those who are making their professional contributions. So I still get at a very basic level of still, even though I'm, as you say, formally retired, I get a lot of pleasure out of seeing these organizations that do this work are successful and also particularly interested in seeing how those who are involved feel that they've had a peak experience of some sort that elevates their own experience and is something they can carry into other aspects of their lives.
So. Sorry about that long answer, but it's something I've been thinking about in retirement. I came across some years ago, the Japanese principle of Ikigai. Maybe you've read about this. And it made so much sense to me. It's four principles. you identify in your life what you love, what you are good at, which I definitely understood what the world needs.
This is the way it's expressed. And the fourth. principle is what can you get paid for? And so that combination, I find myself reflecting back thinking, well, that's where my i i ikigai means purpose and meaning, meaning in life. It's this Japanese concept. So I think that's something I've revisited in retirement, those four principles too, to continue to see what my purpose in life is.
Carol: And in retirement, maybe not with the fourth one, but that certainly drives us for a long
Mary:, and it will continue to drive some.
Carol: But balancing, balancing all And, and really seeing where that intersection or that Venn comes together as it's each of us as individuals., for sure.
One of the reasons I wanted to have you on the podcast, I often am talking to nonprofit experts who focus on helping boards really understand and step into their role, or maybe step away from a role that hasn't been as productive. As well as experts who work with executive directors, helping them be more effective in their role. And so. And then also talking to folks who, I've, I've had conversations on this podcast about how do we really make that partnership between the board and the executive director, the board, the board chair, and the executive director, how to really foster a positive relationship. And I. I was interested in having you on and having this conversation because you've been on both sides of that partnership and so I thought your perspective would be really interesting and illuminating for listeners.
I'm wondering if you could just tell me a little bit about that experience. And I know there have been times when you've been simultaneously on both sides of that equation.
Mary:.because I became interested in how organizations function, and particularly standard setting organizations, which is my specialty area in the non profit board world. After coming up as many people do on the professional service side, you get elected to a board, you become some leader there.
I became president of my professional association, for example, on the, on the elected side. And you begin to really see how That the work doesn't get done without an effective staff partner, in the broad sense. And I think a lot of people who join boards or come up through professional service organizations or professional education associations, which again is my area of board work mostly.
You see that they often don't, and I didn't often understand what was going on on the staff side, particularly. And so there was a time in the organization association that I retired from. I was executive director, but I had been chair of that commission prior to coming on to the staff side.
And I began to see this duality of, there are these two different charges to those involved. And I began to see that as a whole, an integrated whole. I understand there's, there's tons of literature about this, there's a whole non profit board world talks about the staff and the board partnership and so forth, but when you begin to see it yourself and have some aha moments I think it's very it's not just educational, it's illuminating and a transition, a transformation occurs in the way you look at this work.
And one of the things that I do, so I'm, the, that permeable, I, I think there's a fair number of staff leadership positions, which are at least in my world, which are staffed by people who came from that elected professional side. You don't see the reverse very often because there are all kinds of reasons for formerly paid staff to not go on to their own elected board.
that's, you don't see that as much. But you do, you do see, and I think it's important for people who are involved to understand that, that the two halves are not that they're, they're integrated, they have to be integrated in a, in a really conscious way. And when I say conscious, I do mean through overt efforts at educating all involved.
I'm a big advocate for talking to those on both sides of the conversation. The nonprofit board or the council or the commission, the, these terms for the particular sector I work in to understand what the lanes are, what the two functions are and what the leadership, the having the executive director or CEO or chief officer, whatever, be the ex officio over on the executive.
Why, why is that important to know about, not just. Oh, this is how we do it. After that I've seen this repeatedly. And so I've become an advocate for it, but there, there's an actual transformation in those serving. I was rereading some bios. I'm going to go do some presentations this coming weekend.
I was rereading the bio statements of some board commissioner members who are going to be in some of the meetings I'm in. And their testimony about the transformational experience they've had served reminded me that these high level professionals, these are people who are subject matter experts in their field and they're high quality.
They've, they've actually, of course, been in leadership positions in their own fields and all of that, but they still have a transformational experience. come into a system where they understand what their role is together with staff and how that becomes a more meaningful, I'll say enterprise, a more meaningful experience.
And the testimonials, they're just revelatory a lot of the time. So because I've seen that repeatedly, I have become a strong advocate for. In a practical, in the practical sense, strong orientations that give the nomenclature around what nonprofit board work or, again, in my world, the accreditation world, higher education, accreditation world that name these things and describe these functions and that that's part of orientation.
And an ongoing education. And of course, to take all the teachable moments when you're actually on either side, the elected side or the staff side to talk about how we approach the meta? How do we approach this? And why is that important? What? What's elevating about knowing that excuse me? So what I think I've learned pardon me.
Is it important to be able to describe what? To many, I think just assume, well, this is how organizations work. BoardSource writes about it. The Nonprofit Council writes about it. You read, there are thousands of things to read about it, but about how these things work. But when you actually see it in action and understand how the integration of the elected side and the staff side ought to work it really elevates the experience.
Carol: I loved a couple things that you said there around the integration, seeing the organization as a whole, because I think oftentimes, talk about the lanes, what's each body or person's role within that. A lot of it can end up feeling very combative, kind of, you stay over there, we'll stay over here.
Don't, don't get in my business, all that thing. But I'd love for you to talk about that integration a little more, but also, the fact that you're talking about that transformational experience. And I'm curious if you can say a little bit more. What do you mean by that? What, what was transformational for folks and what did they talk about more specifically that had them label that experience that way?
Mary: It's interesting. You say that you see probably because you also help organizations find a way to do healthy culture, you know to properly integrate and interact. But, what I've seen is the opposite of that often. The lanes stay so distinct and maybe it's because when I moved from my elected side, I was a knowledgeable person in that field.
I was a subject matter expert. I became an executive director. My experience has been that people will often defer to you. defer to staff and say, well, y'all do such a good job. Y'all know this work, you, you do it for us. And of course, governance doesn't work that way. And then in my field, there are high stakes decision making responsibilities on the council commission association board side.
I think at a fundamental level, when I say there's an illumination or a transition. It's formative or an aha moment. there are ways to make this very concrete to say, well, it's not an ephemeral transition or, or growth. It's not just, oh, another professionalism.
There's an actual moment. I see this happen repeatedly where somebody says, typically on the elected side where they're there. For reasons other than their knowledge about how boards function. There's a moment when, when people say I had no idea. I just didn't understand that this is, this could, that, that these different sets of responsibilities, I understood, I read that how they work, but I didn't understand how that actually functions in real life.
And so it's again motivated me to actually take a moment, step back, kind of, my, my staff used to call me the great contextualizer. I have an urge to explain. So fortunately, being an explainer now does, there is some value to being an explainer, but, but to stop and, and talk to people about, why is this important?
Why, a quick example in my field. Because I've been most involved with specialized accreditors, those organizations are created by their professional fields. So that means from the get go, there's an inherent conflict of interest in who's going to make decisions about who or what kinds of programs or entities warrant the stamp of quality of the decision that's made by the creditor, the board.
So those serving on the board are all from the field that they're overseeing. And so the, just the fundamental issue of, fiduciary responsibilities suddenly have are very concrete when everybody on the board is from the same professional family and they're all making decisions that will govern who has access to the quality assurance.
And so being able to talk about how that actually is managed is, I think, part of the staff, the lead staff's responsibility. And it's not just a matter of lack of bias or conflict of interest. It's, it's more about the realization that the work the board is doing, the council, the commission is doing is an elevated form of.
Decision making and governance. And I think that's what I've seen people, their eyes light up. It's like, Oh, I'm not here simply because I'm an expert at X or understand how to look at the curriculum of such and such programmer institutions. It's because I have a higher order charge here and that's to protect the interests of the field.
And my role in that is different than just being a subject matter expert. So. Those transformations are really interesting and I've had on enough occasions that I still preach about this, obviously. I've had people say that this affects the way they relate to their work and other tasks when they leave these councils and boards.
I think that serves the whole non profit world because I'd argue that as people get older in their professions or become I don't know, senior administrative leader, whatever that you become more able to affect your field, having a good working knowledge of how nonprofit governance works and why it's important to know those kinds of things.
I feel like that should be at everybody's skill set. It also would build capacity for organizations looking for good members, good public members, people who know how the system works. If they're going to maximize their ability to meet their missions. Am I answering your question a little bit there?
Carol: It is people stepping away from, or stepping beyond maybe their individual, like, this is my expertise and this is what I know about the field to then stepping into, well, I'm, I'm looking at it from a more of a. a 30, 000 foot view of the whole field. And then also I'm responsible for, for stewarding this organization as well as doing the, the, the mission driven work. So being able to. It's like it's like it widens. I think what I, what I hear you saying is it, it widens their lens. then you also said that when they go back to when they're finished with the board role and are, they talk about how they're taking that perspective or what they've learned through the experience and their day to day role, and I'm, I'm curious if there are examples or stories about You know what that what you've experienced or heard from folks about what that is, or for yourself as you've toggled back and forth or straddled the line, if you will, in those roles.
Mary: I just, there, there are so many cases of, as I said, I've been encouraged to continue to, to, to, to give this sermon. About understanding how they organize, how the organizations I've been involved in, how they work because it's elevating and because it's a good skill. you get both the personal growth piece and then you also get this knowledge skills that goes in your knowledge and skills backpack that you can apply in other settings than just the board that you're serving on or the work you're doing.
Let me get at it this way. The work that the organizations I've been involved in do ask a lot of board members. They're not honorary positions. They're, they're extremely active. And as I've mentioned, they have high stakes decision making as part of the charge to the board, not just good governance.
These are not boards or councils or commissions that are primarily charged with nominating, cultivating and nominating new members. board members and doing board assessments. They're not primarily governance groups. That is part of what they do, but it's not. And so the idea that the work that you're doing has to have good quality decision making means you have to stretch, as you say, your, their own, your own lens.
And that is an eye opening experience for almost everyone. And it also, there's something. About it. Not, of course, for every person, but once you're tasked by your commitment to the service for which you've been selected because of your subject matter expertise, not, you've got a niche, you've got something that you're knowledgeable about to bring to the table, but once you've been tasked with rising above your personal experiences, I'll say personal beliefs.
Sometimes those are personal biases, but a lot of times they're just, here's what I've looked at in my neck of the woods. There's something, like, as I say, it's illuminating, I'm using words, illuminating, transformational, something different from, oh, I just learned a lot of new stuff and I made a bunch of new connections.
So there's something more about that. And it makes the hard work, the commitment to do this, really. Heavy lifting on the board side, the commission council side it makes it, I've used the word valorize, it valorizes it, it, it turns it into something worthy of esteem and I think there's something there, I, I haven't I don't want to get into the psychology, but I have people tell me this and, you'd ask for specific examples and the best I can do without, I guess, naming names and all of that is just to say that it.
This happens and people are willing to do it. And then they come back into our professional worlds. The Positions that I've had spent most of my time in my professional world, I was chair of a commission on the elected side and then I moved over to being the executive director on the staff side and after climbing a ladder and following the founding executive director who'd done such a wonderful job and all of that
I get to see firsthand what those folks contribute back to their field. And what they say and how they wish to stay involved. And so I get to again, as I say, I've been reinforced in this approach. Some of the work I'm doing now, I'm an outsider, it's an outsider to the professional discipline.
I'm a public member on a board where, of course, the public member cannot be from the professional field. By definition, it's an organization associated with a council. I have to meet some U. S. Department of Ed regulations regarding having public members. And so I get it and I'm on the board side, of course, not on the staff side.
So I, I get, I get to see how this concept applies outside of my field, where I know the individual in my own field, I know the individuals, I know the professional paths they've taken and, and how they're, you board, sir, their commission service when they know when they've had this transformation. I get to see how that affects them.
The group I'm in where I'm a public member now. I hear their oral testimony. they're just a practical matter. Wow. I never really thought about that or it never occurred to me that or one of the things I've learned is that or There's a lot of self disclosure as well, which I really appreciate.
People will say, well, I'm here because I'm an expert at X, Y, and Z. But I always thought that my view was correct because I'm the dean of the department or whatever, but now I have to see this broader range of perspectives and, these are high level people, they're, they're highly.
Functional professionals. It's not that they haven't thought about this stuff before, but there's something about the board service, the adjudicatory process, and the interaction with knowledgeable staff that raises it up.
Carol: I really appreciate it. It all links back to what you said at the very beginning of trying to be part of helping people have that peak experience as they're, as they're going through that process. And just to close out on each episode, I asked I'm going to ask each guest what permission slip would they give non profit leaders, or what would they invite them to consider to avoid being a martyr to the cause, because I'm always for that, and as they work towards cultivating a healthier culture, or, work towards a good health.
cultivating a in which people can really have a peak experience, whether they're on the staff side or the board side. So what, what permission slip or invitation would you, would you give nonprofit leaders? And I, I, I use that term
Mary: That's a great question. you get to beat my age and stage and try to decide how to give back in an appropriate way. to the field or these organizations while, as I've mentioned, as you know about me, my desire was not to hang on, but instead to figure out how to share what I think I know, but in appropriate ways.
And so probably you hear this all the time, but you can't do it all. And even though I've spent the interview attesting to the power of this service at its best. One of the things that when I say you can't do it all, you can't persuade every person. You can't, you're not, you're not responsible to mentor every person.
You're not, my, my efforts were to Create something bigger than its original parts. And then, as I say, that's worthy of, of being involved in and committing your time to and serving in and, and there's value in that. And there are plenty of cases where you can't accomplish that. There's something especially, it's easier that you can always accomplish the process.
I got all the reports done. I got all the da, da, da. I held the meeting. I got the agendas out. But this thing I'm talking about, it's, it's really not, it's just not possible in every case, of course, and not every person will buy into your vision, this is something I've run into repeatedly, people will, will say, well, you're really, you're just super committed to all of this.
And I'm thinking, well,, You don't have to be as long as you get your reports done and follow the rules and show up on time. you don't have to buy into the vision. So, I think that part of it is to look at the, at your overall successes for your, what you're trying to share about your work and to not hold yourself too high of a, of a standard.
It's not about perfection. It's about progress, I guess. Is that maybe the term for it?
Carol: profession, perfection, not perfection, but progress. Thank you so much. Thanks for coming on the podcast.
Mary: Carol, thank you. And thank you again for doing this work. I have to say, in preparation for our interview, I skimmed through the rich archive of these interviews. And there's so many people and so many voices that run the gamut from, sorry, this is a PSA for your podcast. But, but it, for me, it's, it's, it would be even be part of this education I've talked about if people who are going on to boards would just, or who are on the staff side would look at some of the, or listen to some of the, the experts and, and people you've interviewed.
It'd be really a step in building that knowledge, wisdom even. So thanks for doing it.
Carol: All right. Well, thank you so much.
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