Grounded presence for nonprofit leaders in chaotic times with Danielle Marshall
2/18/2025
““I had a mentor who talked about bringing a non anxious presence to conflict situations. We’re inherently in that right now, whether we want to be or not. I was reading [a blog post] where [Judy Oyedele] said, let’s talk about what we want versus what we don’t want. [She called it] grounded presence. That’s what I’m aiming for as we are respond to all of this. And I think part of shutting out the noise. I’ve definitely taken some steps to limit how much I’m exposing myself to the news. But I’m also looking for people who are going for a deeper analysis than whatever the headline of the day is. So like the foam on the top of the wave. But what’s under the wave? And looking to those voices for more guidance.””
In episode 117 of Nonprofit Mission: Impact, Carol Hamilton and Danielle Marshall collaborate on another “learning out loud” episode. They discuss the challenges nonprofit leaders face in these chaotic, uncertain and threatening times. They explore:
strategies for resilience, intentionality, and community building,
the importance of grounding oneself in mission and values.
how to filter out the noise, maintain agency, and support collective action.
the significance of strategic focus,
how to be mindful about your information consumption
steps to sustaining personal and organizational well-being.
Episode Highlights:
[00:07:25] Navigating Leadership in Uncertain Times
Carol sets the stage for a conversation about leading during chaos and the importance of managing what’s within one’s control.
Danielle shares her approach to resilience—recognizing past strategies, adapting to current needs, and letting go of what no longer serves.
[00:010:25] Embracing Imperfect Resilience Practices
Carol and Danielle discuss the value of small, consistent actions such as meditation, movement, and time in nature.
The importance of observation and mindfulness—whether through deep breathing or simply noticing the environment.
[00:13:25] Shutting Out Noise vs. Making Space for Thought
Danielle highlights the need to balance information consumption, limiting exposure to overwhelming headlines while seeking in-depth analysis.
Carol reflects on discerning what truly matters versus what is merely distraction.
[00:16:25] Finding Agency Amidst Chaos
Leaders must focus on their sphere of influence and avoid being overwhelmed by the broader uncertainty.
Scenario planning as a tool to identify controllable elements and prepare for multiple outcomes.
The importance of aligning actions with mission and values.
[00:18:25] Trusting Experts and Strategic Organizers
Danielle emphasizes the power of deferring to those with expertise rather than attempting to reinvent solutions.
Collaboration over individual action—leaders can contribute by supporting established movements.
[00:20:25] Centering Mission and Values
Nonprofits must return to their core purpose to stay focused.
In politically and ideologically diverse organizations, anchoring in shared mission fosters unity.
Practical ways to keep an organization mission-driven during turbulent times.
[00:24:25] Navigating Scarcity vs. Abundance Mindsets
A shift from "not enough" thinking to an abundance mindset helps sustain momentum.
Trusting that others are doing essential work allows for personal focus and effectiveness.
[00:29:25] The Power of Local Action
Local government decisions often impact communities more immediately than federal policies.
Building relationships within one’s immediate community can create meaningful change.
[00:35:25] Holding Space for Complexity
The challenge of balancing personal emotions with the responsibility of leading others.
Curiosity as a tool for engaging with those holding different perspectives.
The importance of recognizing and resisting divide-and-conquer tactics.
[00:40:25] Emotional Contagion and Leadership Presence
Leaders must be mindful of the emotions they bring into a room.
Establishing boundaries around information intake and conversations to maintain mental clarity.
[00:44:25] Boundaries, Community, and Self-Care
Danielle shares her approach to setting limits on media consumption and energy-draining conversations.
Carol emphasizes the importance of re-grounding in personal "why" and organizational purpose.
[00:49:25] Looking Ahead: Holding Values Firmly
Both Carol and Danielle commit to staying anchored in their values and making intentional choices about where to direct energy.
Encouragement for nonprofit leaders to engage in self-reflection and strategic action.
Guest Bio:
Danielle Marshall is an equity strategist and executive coach committed to helping organizations and leaders embed inclusive practices into their operations in meaningful and sustainable ways. As the founder of Culture Principles, she designs tailored strategies that strengthen team dynamics, enhance problem-solving, and cultivate inclusive leadership. Danielle also coaches senior executives to deepen their cultural competencies, fostering greater empathy, effective communication, and equitable decision-making. An ICF-certified Executive Coach and engaging speaker, she brings extensive experience in organizational development, equipping leaders with the skills and confidence to navigate diverse work places with impact and integrity.
Important Links and Resources:
Danielle Marshall
Culture Principles
Linktree
Unpacked: Culture Chronicles
Draw Together with Wendy MacNaughton
Guardian US edition).
Week magazine
Heather Cox Richardson’s Letters from an American on Substack for historical perspective
How to survive the end of the world podcast with adrienne and Autumn Brown
The feminist survival project 2025 podcast
Dear White Women podcast
On Tyranny by Timothy Snyder which is available in a video series
The Sum of Us by Heather McGee
Finding Grounded Presence for your leadership. Decluttering Your Leadership by Judy Oyedele https://brevityandwit.com/resources/blog/declutter-your-leadership-essential-skills-for-2025/?mc_cid=e75c42c6d7&mc_eid=afeb30bf1d
Related Episodes:
Episode 94: Navigating power and conflict
Episode 75: Confronting generational conflicts
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Carol Hamilton: Welcome, Danielle. Welcome to nonprofit mission impact and welcome to another learning out loud episode. I'm going to stay. I don't normally state the day that we're recording this, but just given the conversation that we're planning to have, we’re recording this on February 5th, 2025. And, folks in the strategy world have been talking about a chaotic space that we've been in for, for a long, long time.
And I've definitely felt like we're feeling it even more so right now. So, Danielle and I wanted to talk about dealing as a leader in chaotic times and what each of us are trying to do, what's within our sphere of And Danielle, welcome, welcome today.
Danielle Marshall: Thanks, Carol. It's good to be back with you. And I know there's a lot to cover in this conversation today.
Carol: And there's so much that we won't cover. We won't get it, being getting into the specifics of exactly what's happened up until right now. But more, how can each of us individually take steps to manage ourselves in this. In the state that we're in.
So one of the things that we talked about was tapping into resilience. It's something that each of us has and people have it at, I think, different levels, depending on what stresses they've experienced over the course of their life to be able to move through. What are some of the things that you're doing, steps that you've taken to take care of yourself at this moment?
Danielle: I appreciate that question, Carol, because the first thing that comes to mind for me And I'll tell the audience, like, as I start this conversation, by no means are my practices perfect, it's just about figuring out what is, what's working for me and, and sometimes what's not working for me and letting go of some of those things as well. When it comes to resilience practices, I think the first thing that I actually did is sit down myself and really give some thought to, like, what have I used as a practice in the past? And so, it was literally jotting out a list, so if it is going for a walk, if it's sitting with community, listening to music all of the things that I may have called on in the past and why that was important to me in particular is I don't think one strategy is going to cut it right now. And so being able to be really mindful about how you've responded to things in the past and then being able to either apply those now or maybe even sort of revise them for whatever you need in, in this moment, maybe you, you spent some time with community before, but now you're finding, I need to be in community conversations more frequently.
So being able to sort of adapt as we're going along.
Carol: Yeah, definitely not focusing on any of the practices being perfect. I've had a meditation practice now for gosh, longer than I want to admit, given how long I can actually empty my mind. Which is probably half a nanosecond
Danielle: Yeah, I hear you.
Carol: before I'm wandering off. My mind is wandering off again. And I, I have adopted this image of like, it's, my mind is this toddler and it got distracted and it wandered off and I need to ask the toddler to come back and sit in my lap again.
But yeah, even with practice, Certainly none of it is perfect. And I was able to actually start doing that when I had a teacher who really emphasized that. Then I was under able to understand what it actually was about. It was again, like its practices, right? It's, it's, it's habits, it's things that you can come back to.
Yeah. Making sure of that. I'm moving my body in some way every day and I'll walk. It's been really cold and gray and miserable out for a while. So I realized it had been too long. I've been doing too much exercise inside. I needed to get out and actually be in the sunshine, even if the sunshine was hidden behind the clouds,
Danielle: Yeah,
Carol: Those basic things.
Danielle: totally get it this weekend or past weekend. I actually took the dog and myself on a hike. And we went out and we just enjoyed nature. But what's nice about that is I chose not to have headphones on or any other noise. It was just to literally be present in that moment. And I happened to be listening to a book before I went on the hike.
And one of the things that they said is, as a monk, one of their practices is to be observant of the environment around you. And so one of the monks had told the newer members to like, just look for a rock, for a rock you've never seen before. Notice the shapes, the edges, the smoothness of it. And like, I just want you to focus on that. And there is something about, Having a point, if you will, like so whether it be meditation or whether it is, I'm noticing how blue the sky is or how leaves are, how the leaves are particularly green today. It gives your mind a chance to just be in that moment. And I feel like that was restorative for me. Because there is so much noise right now. And so finding ways to not just disconnect from the noise because I know a lot of people are talking about that. Like, I'm not watching the news or I'm disconnecting from social media. And I think those are strategies to shut out the noise, if you will.
But my question then also becomes how do we make space for our own thoughts? And just to be present.
Carol: Yeah, that I was reading. I had a mentor who talked about bringing a non anxious presence to her, specifically talking about conflict situations. But I feel like we're inherently in that right now, whether we want to be or not through all that noise that you're talking about. And I was reading something where the person flipped it around and said, let's talk about what we want versus, what we don't want.
So the grounded presence, and I was like, Ooh, I really want to hold on to that. As that's what I'm aiming for as we are responding to all of this. And I think part of, Shutting out the noise. I've definitely taken some steps to, limit how much I'm exposing myself to the news. But I'm also looking for people who are going for a deeper analysis than whatever the headline of the day is.
So like the foam on the top of the wave. But what's what's under the wave? And looking to those voices for more guidance. What are some ways that you're, and I think it's like, how do you find what's really important among the noise?
Danielle: Well, a great question and I wish I had like the answer, if you will,
has been working for me? I've been taking just a few minutes in the morning and the evening to do a quick scan of the headlines, right? So I'm not necessarily reading the articles right off the top It's like what has happened overnight that I should maybe pay attention to and what I'm realizing in just even doing that is there's So much that comes out on a regular basis the majority of it I don't actually have to be concerned with at this exact moment, to say that it does not impact me or my communities.
But if I am to really think about this as a funnel, I can only take in so much. And so my first question when I look at that is, is there anything that I need to understand immediately? Because now I can do a deeper dive into that. But to your point around connecting with people that are doing that deeper analysis.
Like, that's the first place my mind goes to. Like, who's the news source that I heard this from? Is there a question that is answered in this article or post or what or podcast? Whatever it happens to be. Is there something else that I should be asking, right? What's the agenda behind it? So I have lots of questions that surface for me. And I'm looking for other interpretations. It's not that I don't necessarily believe what's in the article. But I think there's discernment. Sometimes I can read something and I agree with certain points and other things. I'm like, actually, that doesn't work for me, or I want to find out more information before I come to a full conclusion.
Carol: Well, and I think, you know the tactics of an autocrat are to create as much chaos as possible. And, I, I was listening to a podcast that you sent me yesterday where they were talking about, well, his real, his real, way of being is a film artist. So the more that you can be distracted by all of that noise, whatever's going on, and the media follows that noise, honestly, the more you're, you're pulled away from the really important things to be paying attention to.
And, I was working with a group last week. We were doing strategic planning, which seems really hard right now. Right? Because there's so much uncertain and so much up in the air from the time that we had started the project six months ago to now, they were, they were reflecting on how their responses right now are, are very different than, than, than, what they were thinking about six months ago, but we were able to anchor into, have them think about and which has been making me think about like what's within my control.
What do they have agency around? We did some scenario planning, so we looked at different pathways that could happen based on some uncertainties and then how could they respond to those? So anchoring back into what's within your control.
Danielle: Yeah, appreciate that, and I'm definitely someone who practices that as well. Like I've sort of doubled down on the things that I know I can have a personal impact on, and that might be directly related to my work. It might be the circles that I run in, but where can I have some influence that's actionable today. think what we're we're experiencing in addition to all the noise is people just feeling like they don't know what they can do,
Carol: Mm hmm.
Danielle: to that point. What I say is look to the people who are the organizers, you wouldn't want me to come in and do brain surgery on you as an example, right?
That is not my specialty. You probably will not emerge well from that interaction with me. And you I have other skills that are going to be useful in this moment where I actually, I am good at them. And so to that end, sometimes it's not about just creating actions just to create them, but it's to look to the people who say, Hey, we've, we've thought about this.
We have a strategy. Here's how we could use your help.
Carol: Absolutely. I recently heard I'm going to mess up his name. I'll, I'll fix it in the, in the show notes of who this actually is. But he wrote a book, called, and it was at that point, what if Trump wins and does some scenarios of different ways that you can, what might you do based on these different pathways?
And I heard him on a podcast and he talked about, being skeptical of people who feel, who sound very certain. That they know what's coming that none of us do. Obviously we can look at history and all sorts of precedents and other people, other countries, other people, our own country, all the history of times like this, we don't know exactly what's going to happen.
So, holding that, holding that lightly,
Danielle: Yeah. I think that's the really hard part right now. It's this ambiguity and we're not good at it.
Carol: no.
Danielle: even in calmer times, it's not something that we excel at as, as people you're absolutely right. Like we don't know. I think there are some conclusions one might draw from it, but along with those conclusions, there's also fear tactics.
There's the noise and the chaos and all of these things. And I think it may be, makes it harder to, like, really understand what's, what's happening. In, in its full scope, the only person who knows what is truly the plan is him.
Carol: And his cronies. Right. Yeah. And I think the other thing that I was reflecting on from the work we were doing last week was how the group, we're talking about how they really needed to anchor back into their mission, who they serve and their values. And, I think really anchoring back into those, what are, what are, what is your North star or what is your anchor?
What is your, how are you holding that, that rudder? What, what keeps you moving forward? And then who, as you're saying, who are you looking to? Who's already doing these things? So not reinvent. I've talked about this a million times. Like don't reinvent the wheel. Don't create a new organization right now, go work with people who are already on the path that you, you see as, as, having wisdom in this area,
Danielle: Mm hmm. What you're saying definitely resonates with me because I've been having very similar conversations with my clients and others in the world. use slightly different languaging. For me, it is about centering on your why.
Carol: and
Danielle: Particularly as I'm thinking about, we both work with nonprofits and, and, and There's a mission. And so your mission is going to be the thing that ultimately centers you and I don't really care what it is that you focus on. It might be literacy. It might be health outcomes, et cetera. But like, why did we decide to come together? And the reason that feels really important is one thing. Across the organization, it sort of level sets.
This is the work that we need to do to support our clients in this, in these communities in these moments. But then beyond that, we're also dealing with organizations who have a diversity of ideologies within themselves. And so, there are people that are extremely liberal, extremely conservative, they are arguing their viewpoints.
And I was like, that actually is not maybe the most important thing right now, if you were to think about the mission of your organization. you've decided to come together to make sure Children can read or again, people are getting the medical treatment that they need. We may not agree on how to get there, but we agree that that's important.
And so can we center that first and then try to come up with strategies that bridge across the differences of ideologies we have?
Carol: We've talked about this many times if you can't do it all. So, what are you focusing on? And, and trusting that. I think, again, this goes back to who can you trust? How are you trusting yourself and how can you trust that other people will be doing work that is moving the things that you care about?
And, and, and most of us, I think people who listen and you and I, we care about a lot of different things. We can't have agency on a lot of different things. So part of the. bringing back that grounded presence is going back to that. Why are you talking about it? And what is your what is your mission?
And how are you staying true to that?
Danielle: Yeah. What you just said about trust, I think, is particularly difficult right now.
Carol: Right?
Danielle: The number of conversations that I've had with people where they've said something like, well, Senator so and so or Congresswoman so and so should be doing X. And in my mind, I'm realizing they're both expressing frustration. also you don't know what that individual is doing, right? Like we can only see so much just the same as we walk through life, 24 hours in the day. No one sees everything that we do. From the outside looking in, it's easy to say they should have. But I also think that is a response on some level to folks who may be feeling like they don't have power in their own worlds.
And so like this other person should be doing this because I can't. And I think, it sort of goes into a scarcity mindset again. For me, it's like, oh, there's not enough. They're not enough people focusing on this. And I'm choosing at this moment, whether it is right or wrong. I don't know, we will see where, where this goes, but I am choosing the focus on abundance. The abundance comes from where I have control, where I have agency, where I can potentially inspire other groups to focus on their agency. That's where I think we get some of the power back in this moment to think about what we can do as opposed to what's not happening. Absolutely.
Carol: Right. And that doesn't mean that you don't call your Congress people and advocate for your mission, your why, speaking against the onslaught of, tyrannical tactics that that doesn't say any of that. And just griping about what someone should or shouldn't have done.
Does it really move anything forward?
Danielle: And I don't want anyone to be mistaken when I say that I look at it as a booth and I can just as quickly pick up my phone and make that call. And I'm going to focus again on what I have to do with the phone calls included in my agency. So I look at this as a both. And what I don't want to do is spend it on myself. And this is a Danielle thing, right again. So if we're talking about resilience practices, I realized that when I complain about certain things without taking my own action, it actually sucks out my life force. And so that's not the space that I've chosen to be in. And it's hard. Like I, even on social media, like I look at all the social justice warriors memes and quick information and it's, it's I know that they're trying to, that's their action in the moment, right?
So I don't want to knock them for that, but also it contributes to the noise. And so I'm like, how do I sort of dissect what is going to be useful for me and stay focused on what I can contribute?
Carol: Yeah. Yeah. And so one of the things that I'm, I am doing, I've been doing extracting myself from social media, not to be, I mean, for myself, at least not to be caught up in that, but, but can feel like, I mean, it's important to, it can be a way to get the word out. And as you said. And it can feel like a little performative if that's not, that slacktivism, like that doesn't.
That doesn't do a lot. It, there's a both and in all of this, but, and then just, that for all of those systems, even the one that I do participate on, on LinkedIn, by engaging, they don't have a product without all the people who are on the network. They don't make money without that.
And so you're working for free for them, engaging, which kills me when I go on LinkedIn and talk to people, but
Danielle: complicated. You
Carol: Yeah, none of this is simple.
Danielle: and we, we've talked about this before, but like, if it's free, you're the product,
Carol: Right,
Danielle: free. And, I think that there needs to be spaces for people to come together because, again, I'm highly focused on community right now, and some people have existing communities they can easily tap into.
But I'm finding that many people didn't have those communities, and so
right now, and it feels like it's the 11th hour, and it's like, Oh, who can I pull together so that I can have this conversation? And, to me, While we're in this moment now, and there's nothing that we can, do about that today, it speaks to me about why we need community before we get to these places, right?
That I can, and going back to the point that you made already around, like, who can I trust in this moment? Well, I know the communities I've belonged to for, a significant period. I know who I can trust within those groups because we've built the relationships in advance.
Right. They
Carol: Mm hmm.
Danielle: of crisis.
If you will, they were predicated off of, Hey, we have something in common or we enjoy one another. And that allowed us to then have a solid relationship so that when we get to these moments where we really have to double down in our efforts, where we have to support people that are grieving or whatever they're going through, that I know that these are folks that are reliable that I can turn to.
Carol: Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I'm part of some of those communities and some of them are online. Some of them are not local. What I'm struck by is, even just on my street, how few of my neighbors I actually know, and how that will likely be very important moving forward. and, and thinking very, I've been thinking more and more, very very hyperlocal of how do I learn more about my town's government, my city government who's involved the, the organizations that are right here.
I've shifted my volunteering so that I'm doing stuff more locally and it's all of it is to, to really take more steps to build different circles of community.
Danielle: Yeah, it is important to understand what's happening at the local level. I know that what is happening federally right now is very scary for people and it should be, quite frankly, like our democracy is being upended. And there are still things that are going to impact you first, if you will. So, when we're thinking about elections, like who is running for the, the judge judgeships or who's, running for the, the town sheriff.
These are things that matter that we should be more invested in. But what I often hear people talk about is like, I'm, I can't wait for the next presidential election or they're thinking midterms or who's going to be the mayor. Those are important things, and are other folks who are doing critical jobs in our communities that we often overlook because we're like, oh, they're, they're just a judge.
Well, if that judge is the person that you need to stand in front of one day whether you're a defendant or, the plaintiff in that case, it doesn't matter. Like, do you know that this is someone that you can trust and your vote matters?
Carol: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I feel like, know, we happen, we both happen to live in a state that's not one of the, and of course now I'm blanking on what they're even called for once where they send all the people,
Danielle: sanctuaries, yes.
Carol: no, not sanctuary the, the election in during the election, the, the, the states that are in contention.
So we live in a state that. That at least at the federal level is likely to go, blue and go be democratic. And we have two democratic senators. And so we don't get a lot of attention, honestly, during those big elections, but the person that I have met is, who came to my door and knocked on my door and asked me, what are the concerns that you have as the person who represents me on my city council?
Are one of the two people who do so, yeah, that, that, and, and knowing that she took the time to go down my street and knock on every door and ask people, what are they concerned about brings that a greater level of trust,
Danielle: It wasn't until I had hit my forties already that I attended my first town or excuse me, county council meeting. And then more recently went to the budget meeting for the county. And I will say like these things have been happening all along for whatever
just wasn't plugged into it.
But it is very interesting to be able to sit with people who literally live in your community or maybe the town over and understand what their priorities are, right? So we can be incredibly isolated or we're talking to because we belong to our own little communities. We're talking to people who are often like minded. It's useful. I think sometimes to step outside of that community also to figure out what other people's issues are. We are not standing alone. We might silo ourselves, but it doesn't actually help us if we're trying to think about the collective good About human rights fundamentally and like I will draw a line in the sand on that. But there are other things that I think that we could have continued conversations and try to come to some solution where we're in the right relationship as opposed to just polarizing one another.
I
Carol: Yeah, I'll be honest and even though that's like the core of my religious faith of the inherent worth and dignity of every human being, I'm struggling with that right now.
Danielle: get it, right? Like I say this and like, as I'm saying, it does not mean I don't have my own battles with it. I have to actively choose to be curious with other people to sit in on the conversation. And it's not always easy, but I'm also trying to understand when I want to run from those moments when I want to dismiss that person. Is there something else? Like there's a reason I'm wanting to do that. And like, I want to know, even without them being present, Danielle, what's happening for you?
Carol: Yeah, I think that curiosity and staying in curiosity so that you can see the other person across from you or next year or whoever as a, as a full human, not, not as a stereotype, not as a, whatever you think. from the few words that they've said, you've heard them say,
Danielle: And it's hard, right? Like we want people to see us in our humanity, which means that I must extend the same thing to you. Easy.
Carol: not easy, where they're trying to make us all afraid of each other. I mean, that's one of the other tactics, right? I mean, divide and conquer is a classic very old tactic of power to try to divide and conquer, to make people afraid of each other. it's, it's embedded in our culture at its roots and, you know Both of us have been working over the years to try to, address that and root some of that out, but it doesn't mean that it's just, being those embers that were always there are certainly being flame, lots of oxygen is going in that direction to, to make all of that worse,
Danielle: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that that is the tactic, right? If we divide and conquer and it's sleight of hand, and if you're busy hating this person or fearful of this other group, you're not focusing on the actual things that are happening that are going to impact all of us. But, I think this comes back to me. that it's intentionality that we have to place behind it. Like you have to at some point decide what person you want to be. Do you want to show up? Do you want to be curious? Do you want to see the humanity in other people? And I think if you were to ask those questions to folks, of course, everyone, I want to see humanity.
And like, of
I want to talk to people that are different from me. And I'm like, but do you? Because show me where you've placed the effort forth. And, and I don't mean that to point fingers and be accusatory because it's, it's, again, I could point the finger right back at myself. I need to see how it's demonstrated. That's going to be sort of the difference maker at this moment for me. Yeah.
Carol: grew up watching lots of movies and all the things about, either made up fictional or around different points in history. And there's usually a hero that moves through and over whether it's, through the civil rights movement or all the different movements or during World War II or all the different points in history.
And. Through the storytelling, you're led to identify with the person who is the hero who doesn't go along, doesn't conform, steps outside, takes a risk, and it's easy when you're sitting there reading the book or whatever to imagine that you would be that person. And now I think about testing.
That truth and I remember being at an organization where we had a very erratic leader and you know People were afraid every day that they were going to lose their job if they said something wrong or whatnot And so we were in this state of paralysis And I mean I had the thought this is how this is how terrible Genocides and all the things happen because if this situation where the stakes Feel high but actually for most people In that situation where they'd be able to find another job, like it wasn't life or death.
I mean, there may have been a few people where this was their lifeline right there, but for the majority of the people, they were acting as if it was, and it wasn't.
And so it was just like, yeah I can see why people go along. And as I, as one book I read recently talked about, obeying in advance, Anticipating, what's coming.
And so, hunkering down and, and, and as people have been talking about bending the knee, bending the knee to the tyrant before they, he's even asked for it,
Danielle: Yeah, I, that is going to be one of those big questions that we'll have to do some individual soul searching on. Because again, where do you want to stand? I mean, so many people are drawing parallels to Hitler and Nazi Germany. And we're, we're literally watching that playbook unfold before our eyes right now.
And so when that question surfaces around, what would you have done in, Nazi Germany, Germany, I'm thinking to myself, like, we're watching it right now.
Carol: What, what, what will you do right now? Who do you want to be? I
Danielle: or people and I do get this. A lot of people are saying they're stepping back because they're waiting to see what emerges. But the question is like, how much time do we have? And that is not an answer. Any of us have like really clear, clearly defined. And so if I'm sitting back for a month, I'm sitting back for two months and so forth down that timeline. If I look up one day and I'm like, wow, I missed my window. I'm gonna have a really difficult time sitting with that person. and again, I don't
Carol: Meaning, actions are that we can holistically take because I think it's going to come down to the individual, both prefer what you're good at, so forth. But something needs to happen. Resistance needs to be today.
yeah, yeah, I mean, just what happened over the weekend where, Elon Musk and an unelected, private citizen, billionaire, he and five engineers have accessed a system that manages money flow for 20 percent of the economy. They shut that down. A lot of people are going to be hurt. And that happened, two days ago.
Danielle: It's in the, in the cover of darkness, all of this stuff is happening. But again, this is why you have to pay attention to the things that matter instead of just letting all the noise in, because this one is going to have a very real impact for the majority of the country.
Carol: Just thinking about that. I have to take a couple deep cleansing breaths.
Danielle: I know. It's hard to know what the right thing is to say at this moment. And perhaps there isn't a right thing,
Carol: Yeah, exactly.
Danielle: you want to provide comfort and strategy. And my goes out, I think, to many of our leaders also right now who are trying their best to hold it together and inspire their teams to keep people moving on track. And they are also human,
Carol: Right.
Danielle: and that's
Carol: Yeah. tough thing.
And then just what we know now about emotions and how contagious they are. if you're feeling anxious, if you're not able to tap into that grounded presence, then your anxiety is being felt by everybody else in the room. And so, and when we have, when that is going on, it's very, very difficult.
In fact, it can be impossible for our brain to think, To not just be in that fight and flight and Vaughn freeze And to actually be able to think about the bigger picture in the longer term. So all the things that we're talking about physiologically literally are not possible if you're in that spin
Danielle: Yeah. I think another piece of this is that we're going to have to create stronger boundaries for ourselves. So understanding like what you can take in. Like I gave the example in the beginning, like I scan the headlines in the morning and I'll do it again in the late afternoon or evening. But that's a boundary for myself.
So even when I feel the pull of like, Oh, I should go check on, whatever station and see what has happened. I've said to myself, no, I've also had to stop people in the mid, in mid sentence, actually, and just say we're not going to actually have that conversation right now. Like, I've, I've hit a limit and a ceiling for what I can intake at this moment.
And, let's talk about it. I'm happy to talk to you and engage, but I can't talk about this particular thing right now. For folks that are empathetic, like, that have, like, a deep empathy or their empaths in general, absorbing other people's emotions is very real at this moment. And so if you're anxious and you come to me like I remember years ago with a staff member who blew into my office and she's like, let me just tell you everything that's wrong. And I was like, you came in like a tornado. I was like, you have caused me anxiety in this. And I was like, I need you to go back out. I was like, and came back in with a different energy, right? Like I really legitimately want to help you. I want to engage in the conversation, but how people approach it then ultimately impacts how, how people are hearing them and like whether they can really be present with you fully. Yeah, and you talked about the complaining and complaining versus taking action and in the moment I was thinking, well, you might also give yourself a boundary of, like, I'm going to set a timer and I'm going to rant for 2 minutes and then I'm going to, like, shake my body and get that energy out of me and then I'm going to move on.
Carol: Cause I think anytime we try to suppress something it doesn't do well, but to be, but again, to just be caught in that doesn't, that spinning doesn't, doesn't help either. So, yes, those boundaries. So similarly, I, Not, not looking on social media, checking the news maybe once a day.
checking my news sources, I've changed from the Washington Post. I'm now subscribed to the Guardian. That seems more independent, than other news sources, but having boundaries around that. And then, also with what I'm taking on in volunteer work and all the different things, I think it's going back, like there's this inventory that I'm having to do.
But I've been in the process of, but I think it's just even more important right now to really ground into are those fundamentals for me? What are the most important, and what are those anchors and boundaries that I need to hold? I'm,
Danielle: I I love that you brought up this idea that we cannot suppress emotions or that it's not healthy for us to suppress because we certainly can, but it's not healthy for us to suppress them.
Carol: I know all about suppressing
Danielle: and
Carol: a lifelong training on that one.
Danielle: Yeah, I think a lot of us have, right? On some
that we've all tried to hide from, stick your head in the sand, and I'm not advocating that people do that. and when I talk about boundaries, like again, how do I want to show up at this moment? And to the degree that I can, like I might say I want to be curious, I want to be intentional on this day, but I'm finding myself in a spiral and I have to allow that to be true also because I'm human. But when I say boundaries with other people, it's not that I am saying you cannot. have your full range of emotions when we're in conversation. I might just simply say, I can't deal with that right now,
right? Like this
Carol: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Danielle: for me. But it does not mean that you have to dim your light or what you're experiencing, but I just may not be the right receptor for that at this moment.
And so like that, that's where I sort of draw the line because I would hate for someone to come back to me and be like, you can't be angry or you can't be sad or you can't, whatever it is, because I'm a. I'm a human being. And so I'm going to have a range of emotions. But if someone said to me, like, I right now I can't be in this level of, anxiety provoking conversation, I would have to respect that.
Carol: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Right. And I think, old style would be like this, this, that, that, that, that that emotional dumping or whatever it was, was a helpful thing and it's not right. So how do you as an adult manage, and as a leader manage yourself not suppress, but also, work through your emotions in a, in a way that, for you and, and, and respect the others around you.
But yeah,
Danielle: feels like just again, another reason to maybe shut out some of the noise. Because when do you have time to work through the emotions that you're experiencing when it's a constant barrage? Right? And so when we talk about tactics, it's understanding that this is coming fast and furious so that you don't have a chance to reorient yourself.
Carol: right. And on purpose.
Danielle: hmm. Absolutely. And
Carol: Well, as we round out what are a couple of things that you're really going to be paying attention to for yourself over the next week or so? Let's just keep this in a, right now timeframe since, since the meditation teachers are always telling us to be in the air now.
Danielle: Even as you ask that question, I'm like, I don't even know. That is so big. I'm, I'm continuing to monitor certain executive orders that I feel like are important both in my work, but also again to the communities that I belong to so that is top of mind for me. And when I say monitor, I'm not looking at them every single day, right?
Like, it's, it's, it's a quick scan because some of these things have now legally been challenged and so they have to go through their own processes. But I will periodically check back in. I am focusing on the community. And so, every week I am taking a look at my calendar and I'm looking at what meetings and events that I've been invited to. And to be quite frank, some of them I'm saying no to. Because that is also a boundary. If I know that the conversation is not going to be one that I find to be particularly helpful in this moment or might put me in a bad head space knowing that I have other work that I need to do and family obligations, then the answer is thank you, but I, I will see you next time. so, those are
Carol: Mm Hmm.
Danielle: myself to the gym. It's, it's, it's pretty early in the year. So when I was there on Monday, like the gym was crowded and I'm like, well, I know some folks are going to drop off soon but I don't even care while the gym is packed, I'll be there smiling with everybody else because this is my outlet right now.
Carol: just staying, staying focused on the fundamentals. I do think that this is all, I, one of the things that I do with clients that I haven't done with myself is like work through what's my theory of change. What's, and I have it, I think in my head, like most people do, when they are in an organization, they have that.
And I've felt like I need to get it down on paper and. Really have it grounded. So I can, I remember when I was first starting I wrote a piece about, what's my, why and why do I do this work? And, and when things were not going well, it was a, it was a thing to go back to and read that as a reminder of, Yeah, these are the, this is my lane.
This is why I do this. This is what I'm good at. These are my values that I'm going to be sticking up for and speaking up for. So yeah, I have those and then being able to share them with others and being in conversation with communities learn from how other people are handling it as well.
Cause I, I certainly don't feel like I've got all the answers
Danielle: Yeah. I hear you on that. The value piece really stands out to me. I mean, it's pretty early in the year. And when we think about values, I think this is going to be a year where we absolutely have to reconsider what they are and double down.
Carol: For sure. Well, so much. so much.
Danielle: Thank you so much for having me on, Carol. I always appreciate a chance to connect with you and have good conversations.
Carol: Yeah, I appreciate you so much. Thank you.
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