Project management for nonprofits with Jami Yazdani
2/3/2025
““At its core, project management is about helping people work together.””
In episode 116 of Nonprofit Mission: Impact, Carol Hamilton interviews Jami Yazdani, a nonprofit project management expert specializing in helping organizations achieve their goals effectively. The conversation:
Focuses on the nuances of project management in mission-driven organizations,
Offers practical insights for nonprofit leaders to balance strategic vision and operational execution.
Emphasizes prioritization, clear communication, stakeholder inclusion, and sustainable planning as critical to success.
Episode Highlights:
[00:06:31] Misconceptions About Project Management
Beyond Timelines: Project management is more than deadlines; it’s about facilitating collaboration, stakeholder management, and creating clarity.
Key Skills: Building motivation and gathering diverse input from team members.
[00:09:01] Stakeholder Management
Starting with Stakeholders: Identify who needs to be involved, aiming for inclusivity to avoid resistance later.
Role Definition: Clarify roles to streamline communication and decision-making.
[00:12:09] Communication Planning
Strategic Communication: Plan outreach throughout the project lifecycle and beyond to ensure sustainability.
Continuous Adjustment: Regularly revisit and revise communication strategies as the project progresses.
[00:14:47] Writing a Clear Project Scope
The Power of One Sentence: Jami shares a template to define projects succinctly, focusing on the "why," the action, the outcome, and the deadline.
[00:17:06] Defining a Project vs. Program
Temporary vs. Ongoing: Projects are temporary efforts to create unique outcomes, while programs represent ongoing operations.
Examples: Developing a leadership program vs. running it long-term; implementing a CRM system vs. its daily use.
[00:23:02] Transition from Strategic Planning to Implementation
Bridging the Gap: Translate strategic goals into actionable steps with timelines, resources, and accountability.
Realism in Planning: Focus on achievable initiatives and build a culture of revisiting plans regularly.
[00:29:00] Accountability and Engagement
Sustaining Momentum: Involve stakeholders consistently through updates and visibility in meetings, newsletters, or other platforms.
Board Involvement: Assign board champions to initiatives for shared accountability and resource advocacy.
[00:36:07] Invitation to Nonprofit Leaders
Permission to Prioritize: Jami advises leaders to focus on a few high-priority initiatives and delegate or set aside less critical tasks.
Leadership Development: Delegate responsibilities to empower team members and prepare future leaders.BIO
Guest Bio:
Jami Yazdani is a project management and planning consultant with over 18 years of experience leading innovative and impactful initiatives. She spent more than 14years in leadership roles in higher education and libraries, managing teams,projects, and change. Jami founded Yazdani Consulting and Facilitation in 2018 to help mission-driven organizations lead more impactful projects, teams, and planning. She has served on the boards of non-profits and associations in leadership, marketing, programming, and mentoring roles. Jami holds Master's degrees in Technology Management and Library and Information Science and ProjectManagement Professional (PMP), Disciplined Agile Scrum Master (DASM), ChangeManagement, and Wicked Problem Solving Practitioner certifications.
Important Links and Resources:
Jami Yazdanihttps://yazdaniconsulting.com/
https://linktr.ee/yazdanicf
https://yazdaniconsulting.com/impactful-blog
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcWWX8w7MtE
https://yazdaniconsulting.com/resources/2022/2/7/5-key-elements-worksheet
Related Episodes:
Episode 64: More efficient operations
Episode 84: Identifying the skills your team needs to bring your strategic plan to life
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Carol Hamilton: Welcome, Jami, welcome to Mission Impact.
Jami Yazdani: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Carol: So I like to start each episode with a question around what drew you to the work that you do? What would you say motivates you or what would you describe as your why?
Jami: I mean, I think my big picture why is that I want to help good people do good work. And so, you know, I had a whole career in libraries and higher ed and I moved into. administration and management very, very quickly and was unprepared for that. and so a lot of what I do is wanting to help particularly new managers, middle managers, but even, you know, kind of new executives. Do good work, you know, feel confident in the work that they do feel like they can lead their teams. Well I wanted to help people collaborate to do good work. And so that's really my primary motivation.
Carol: Yeah, well, I can, I can resonate with all of those things that you're saying. Even the, you know, do help, help good people do good work. Could be my tagline as well. So I love it. So one of the areas that you really focus on is project management. And I think it's a, I, I feel like every organization that I worked in, especially the smaller ones, I ended up being the accidental project manager, just because I don't know, I was talking to my husband last night about Myers Briggs.
I was like, cause I'm a J, you know, cause I can think of all the things and check the boxes and keep things moving. But what would you say are some of the things that you know, our folks get wrong about project management in, in the nonprofit sector?
Jami: So I think not only in the nonprofit sector, but generally folks think of project management as being about a timeline and a dead, you know, setting deadlines, coming up with a timeline. Can do that for you. A good calendar can do that. Most people can come up with a timeline. I think they miss it. I think that's all of the other pieces that are really about facilitating collaboration.
I think that's what project management is about. Yes, you can use project management techniques to sort of manage yourself and your own task list, but at its core, project management is about helping people work together. To get things done. And so I think it's that stakeholder management team management pieces and also creating clarity around the work that you're doing.
So people think, oh, I'm being a project manager because I jumped right into this long task list. And I've assigned some dates and said that, you know, Joe is going to do half the work. Those are important pieces, but you know, how do you get people on board? How, how do you get people to want to do work with you?
And I think especially in nonprofit and other mission driven environments, are on top of everything else and people are already burned out. They already have enough work to do, and you're asking them to do something else. And so you want to be really clear about what you're asking them to do.
You want to Ask them to do things in ways that will motivate them to do those things. But you also want to make sure you're getting a lot of feedback from users and other members of your team. You know, you're rarely the only expert or the primary expert in the room. Right. And so you want the feedback and input and knowledge and experience from the people that you're bringing together.
And so I think that's what people miss that it really isn't about. The timeline, it's about the people, right?
Carol: So to say more about that the, the people aspect that stakeholder management that you talked about, what are some of the things, if somebody gets handed a big project, you know, they haven't managed a big project or a team and it may not even be, you know, likely a lot of projects are very cross functional and so, A lot of the people involved are not necessarily going to report to that person.
So they have to kind of rely on, you know, those peer relationships. What are some things that help kind of kick off a whole process? On a kind of good, good foot, if you would.
Jami: So yes, absolutely. The vast majority of the time, I manage a project that has no authority over the people that they're working with. Sometimes, yes, you may have people who are on your team that you can sort of try to tell what to do, but project management is met for situations where you don't have that authority. So one of the things that I always start with with folks is figuring out who your stakeholders are. So that should be the first step. So who needs to be involved in this? And I typically encourage people to think really broadly and inclusively about that. And I think particularly in resource constrained environments, environments where everybody is busy, it's Super tempting to say, well, let me get the three or four people.
I work really well with who is actually going to get this done. They're not going to be a pain in the meeting. They're not going to be resistant. Let me pull them together. We'll do this project. And that's definitely an approach. But the people that you didn't include are going to appear later. They are going to be unhappy with what you've done, or they are going to be an impediment to you finishing the work.
And so. Coming up with a really broad and inclusive stakeholder list and then thinking about the roles that people are going to play. Not everybody needs to be on the project team, but most people either need information about the project or need to give input into it, right? And so really thinking about the different roles that people can play is a great way to get buy-in because if people know what's happening and they feel that they've had, Even if it's just one or two points of input, they're often more willing to go along. And so coming up with that stakeholder list and planning communication first. So how are you going to communicate with all of these different people based on their roles? Are you going to have team meetings? Are you going to put an advisory committee together? Are you going to be sending out social media posts to your community, letting them know what you're doing? And so I think starting with stakeholders and communication planning. Is really, really critical, especially in nonprofit environments. And so those should be kind of your first things and getting your scope together. What are we actually trying to do? And trying to get that to one sentence. So people struggle with that.
I find it because they know how important the project is or the impact that it's going to make, but what are we doing? Tell me what we're doing in one sentence. That's what people need to hear. They can ask questions after that, but you need it in one sentence.
Carol: Yeah, yeah. And a lot of that is kind of parallel to the work that I do in terms of strategic planning. I mean, it itself is a project and you know, I'd love to go back to the point around communication because I think Oftentimes folks are really good at the beginning of a process about communicating.
And I've even fallen into this trap where, you know, we've, we've gotten further along and then realized like, oh, there's some loops that we needed to close. So say more about that communication planning upfront and how that can help.
Jami: Yeah. So, I mean, I do think, yes, people are really good at kind of thinking about early communication and sort of how you're going to get people in that first meeting or, you know, kind of get that first input. I do think I, I typically encourage people to just kind of do a simple chart of who, what, how, and when.
So, Who are they? I'm kind of based on their role, what information they might need. And really thinking about it in terms of the entire project, but also after the project ends. So I do think that's another important piece for nonprofits in particular. that they really have to think beyond the project and think about sustainability and what's going to happen when people start implementing. And so I do think you want to do your communication planning throughout. But I also think we want to keep going back to it. And so I think some of what happens is people get kind of excited at the beginning of a project, excited to put some plans together and then they never look at them again. And they also don't make communication a task. So they'll put every other task, not putting, you know, send the report to the executive committee. Make sure you put, you know, something in the, the newsletter communication should be part of, of your tasks, either as a project manager, if it's up to you or if there are people you know, on your team or in your organization that are helping with that, I also recommend if you have communication folks, include them early, right?
Cause I think that often I was recently. Speaking at a communication nonprofit communication conference. And we were joking that they are often the people left out of the stakeholder list, right? And then people come to them and say, we've just done this amazing thing. Put it out on social media.
Can't you write some copy? And they're like, wait a minute, this is our busy time or, you know, somebody who's on vacation. So include your communication people, but really do try to plan for the entire. Project and beyond and also look at it again. So maybe, you know, halfway through the project, say, is this still what we want to do? Did we forget somebody that we need to include? Are those asynchronous meetings not working? You know, really kind of, not trying to get the plan perfect at the beginning, but being willing to revise it as you go along.
Carol: Right. And that's the same with. with the work that I do, right? You're not going to get it all right exactly at the beginning. Even when the plan is approved, it may not be exactly right forever and ever. One of the other things you talked about was getting it to that one sentence of describing what the work is.
Can you give me some examples of what that might sound like?
Jami: Yes, so I do have a sort of approach that kind of a template, a 1 sentence template that I use with folks and writing a project scope statement. I do typically have people think about a bigger picture. Why first? So, for example, in support of a strategic initiative to improve efficiency or in support of our mission to serve a certain population. So in mission driven environments where we're asking people to do more. To work on projects and support projects on top of everything else, you need a big picture.
Why? start it with a big picture. Why? And then say this project is going to some kind of action. So are we building something, developing something, planning something, executing something, implementing something whatever that outcome is by a certain deadline. And so those pieces, the big why. The sort of action you're taking, the big outcome and the deadline I think are great ways to make sure people really understand why they should participate and also what you're trying to go towards.
So the scope isn't enough. The scope is that 1 sentence that brings people in that reminds people 6 months into the project, why they should still show up. But then really clearly defining your deliverables, I think, is the next piece. So this is why this is what we're trying to do. And then here are the 3 or 4 things that we will be creating. During this project, it's those 3 or 4 things that drive the action. So I think I got the scope, correct? I don't know.
Carol: That sounds right. I'm sure you are the queen of templates. So you probably have a template that we can share with folks that will help them with that. What are some of the other misconceptions that you find folks in the nonprofit sector have about project management or the kind of mistakes that you see people making?
Jami: Yeah, I mean, I think 1 thing is that people kind of narrowly define a project and so they think. Only huge things, things they do, you know, every couple of years things that cost a lot of money or a project, but projects can be much, much smaller than that. And even if you don't define something as a project, it doesn't mean that you can't use project management. Approaches and techniques to help you do your work better. And so, you know, a lot of the things like having a scope statement that's 1 sentence. You can use that for a committee or a board or just getting a team together defining some kind of clear deliverables is something that you can do in any sort of work. that you're trying to do. And so I do think kind of having this, Oh, that's not really a project. That's, now, a program or that's something else. I think it limits people sometimes from wanting to apply some of the techniques. I also think the challenge for a lot of folks that I see in nonprofits is that the project is. Their projects are part of a larger initiative. So they may have seen a need in their community and the project is about developing a program and maybe they've gotten grant funding for that. And the program will live on after the project ends. And I think sometimes because the impact of the project is going to be. Large and is going to last for a long time and often the project manager in that case may have been the one who applied for the grant and pitched the project and is going to run whatever they're building. It can be really hard for people just to focus on the project. And so I often work with project managers who can't kind of think about the project because they're thinking about the program or the thing that they're implementing. And you really do have to focus on the project. On kind of what's happening right now, because if you're thinking about all of these things too far in advance, it's hard to get people on board. Right. And it's also hard for you to really define what is happening in this project. Not that you can't think about how it's, it's going to be and kind of use that as you're building things.
But if you're talking about what the program is going to be, when you're trying to get someone on your team to help you build it, it can be really hard for people to know. What role they're going to play and how they can really help. Yeah.
Carol: So can you give me an example of what that might look like? Like what would be the difference between a project and then the ultimate program? Like just to for for instance,
Jami: Yeah. So I'm thinking of an example of a project coaching client I recently had where she had gotten a grant to build a program that was going to help, you know, a certain kind of constituent of their nonprofit. sort of a leadership development program around advocacy in a certain area. And so the project was to develop a program and run a beta cohort and assess it. Obviously, if that worked well and what they learned, then it would become a regular program that they were going to run year after year. And so the project was really about how we develop this. What are we going to include in this program? Kind of making those decisions and then also running this beta cohort and assessing it.
And so that was just the project piece. And then kind of what happened after that, it was going to become kind of regular operations and sort of a longstanding program in their organization. Another example might be an organization adopting a new CRM. And so the project is just about getting the CRM set up and maybe people trained. But then that CRM is going to become part of people's regular kind of ways So that's kind of the distinction. PMI says that a project is, temporary endeavor undertaken to create a unique product, service, or result. And it really is that temporary piece. This is going to come to an end, whether it's six months from now, a year from now, two years from now, and you're creating something unique and, and to your environment and often for the first time.
And so even if everybody else has adopted that same CRM you're doing it for the first time, but once it becomes a regular way of working. It's no longer a project.
Carol: I think that that distinction is really helpful. Although, yeah, as you said, at the, at the top of the, our conversation, you can kind of use some of these techniques to just manage your, your regular work. But at the, that, That's not all that, that project management is. It's really, you know, that temporary piece that brings people together, collaborating on something that's going to result in something new.
So yeah, all of those pieces. So one of the areas that you and I work overlap is in strategic planning and oftentimes folks who do strategic planning you know, are on the side of kind of. Being, having more fun with the, the opening piece of, you know, talking to all the people and helping the group envision their new future and set those goals and kind of define what success looks like.
But then we really, you know, and I always say like, you can't just do that part. You've really got to then translate this into a shorter term. You've got a longer term plan, you know, three to five years, but you've got a short break that down into shorter chunks of what are you going to do this year?
What are you going to do in the next six months? In that implementation planning. And that's something that you've started doing kind of as a specialty to come in and really help people nail down some of those details, what can say a little bit more about kind of how you see that working and Some of the things that people miss in that kind of transition from, wow, we've got this great plan now, you know, how are we actually going to make it work,
Jami: Yeah. And I think, you know, my kind of past career in higher ed, I often saw, you know, a university would have planners come in and they do all these sessions and you'd get these big picture ideas and you'd hear about it when it was launched and you never heard about it again.
Carol: Which is everybody's biggest fear, right? But you do all that work and it's not worth it.
Jami: Right. And I do think I always found that frustrating.
And so, you know, when I did strategic planning as a library director, I wanted to have things we could actually do. So yes, it's great to dream big and I want people to be innovative and all of that. But what are we actually going to do at the end of this plan? And so I'm not as good at the, you know, kind of getting people to a vision because there's always in the back of my mind, I have that voice that's like, you know, I can't do that.
Or, you don't have enough money for that. That's the voice that's in my head, right? I think there's a realistic element. And so I'm not great at that. But what I am really, I think, good at is once you have that plan. Sitting down with the people who are going to be doing the work and saying, so what does this mean?
How can we move the needle on this objective? What are the things that we're going to do? Like you said, in the first six months of the first year, who's going to do it? Right. Is Jose going to lead this initiative to, to do whatever is Jane going to, you know, get the committee together. That's going to assess this marketing plan that we said that we're going to put in place. And so some of that is project management. That's kind of the dovetail is what we are actually going to do to get to this, this outcome. And so that's the work. I, I really
Carol: Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. go. It's yeah. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. Yeah. Mhm.
Jami: To get there? And in reality, you know, you and I have had conversations about this recently.
It's not a super complicated process to kind of do implementation planning. But it just has to be done,
Carol: It is a discipline. Yeah.
Jami: You have to do it, and you also have to make it a regular thing. And so it's not just something that you do in the first two or three months after you've come up with a plan. You need to keep coming back to it. You need to have a plan for how you're going to assess what you're doing, how people are going to report on what they're doing. And also it can be used to make changes because your big idea that you have today
Carol: Yeah,
Jami: From now, things may change. I was working
Carol: Absolutely.
Jami: With an organization where they had that for like 20 years had been trying to get something done and it happened. They did it. And then it was like, well, what do we do now? Right? And some of that was in the middle of a plan that they were already a part of. So implementation planning, just because you're coming back to the plan kind of again and again, and really thinking about it also, sometimes can offer that opportunity to say, well, you know, we thought we were going to go in this direction.
And. But we can still achieve that big mission or that bigger goal, but let's do something a little different. So I think it really can keep the plan and the vision and the mission even if we're not doing things exactly as we thought we were, you know, two or three years ago.
Carol: Yeah, that piece is so important and I talk about it all the time of, you know, the, the, the, the original plan is not set in stone, you know, it's not, it's not, you know, commandments from on high it needs to, you need to keep refreshing, reevaluating it and, and seeing where you are, seeing what's still relevant, all of that, but having a practice around that and, and certainly when I'm working with folks, I, I want them to kind of hit that, you know, Sweet spot between, you know, dreaming and reality so that so that what they're what they're deciding those three to five things, you know, they do have hope of being able to actually move forward on and get into the nitty gritty of like, how are we actually going to do this?
And who's going to do what by when? But yeah, that there's always a, Trying to find that balance of, you know, pushing yourself like the dream. And then, you know, what's your current capacity and what can you really take on? But yeah the, the open piece and that piece can be intimidating for folks in the room too, right.
When you, when you're, you know, trying to help them. Some people are more on that side and, and some people are really like, Oh, this is all frustrating. I just want to know what I have to do tomorrow. So it's balancing that too, that energy.
Jami: Yes, yes, there are. I mean, and I do think that's why you want a lot of different people in the room, right? Because there are the people who are great at kind of the, the bigger visioning and, the big dreams. And there are the people who just want to make the thing happen and know what they need to do.
But I also think just like with project management and thinking about communication, Yeah. A piece of the implementation is thinking about how we're going to communicate and how we're going to keep people engaged. Because if you staff in particular into a strategic planning process, and they never hear about it again.
Carol: The worst,
Jami: For culture. And also why would they even want to participate in the next project? It's like,
Carol: Right?
Jami: I've been here 10 years. We've had three plans and I've never seen anything happen with it. But if people really can see themselves in the plan and see that things are happening and that their work is supporting the plan, then I think you can, you know, you can move the needle forward.
We want people to, to see their role. And supporting the organization kind of beyond their everyday work.
Carol: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So what are some of the first things that you have groups do when they're kind of. They've got their plan. They've got the, you know, the big goals, they've got success kind of outline of
Jami: So.
Carol: This is what we're hoping to get to, what are some of the first things that you have people kind of tackle to make that more concrete?
Jami: Yeah, I mean, one of the first things is we just kind of sit down and say, well, what would we need to do to get here? And depending on who's in the room, if they are people who maybe struggle to think further along, maybe we just do the first year. If there are people in the room who really want to think through, You know, three years of a plan.
We can do it that way, but it really is. So what are we going to do? Sometimes, too, I have people think about what the deliverables or the kind of concrete outcomes are. Some people think of a better way. So, you know, if. If you have a goal around let's say, you know, supporting a more inclusive workforce, what are those out?
What does that look like? Are you going to do some training? What are those deliverables? And then we can come up with actions or tactics based on that. And so I usually start with the what, what do we want to do? And then I often find that a lot of people, particularly staff, are good at that, you know, they're like, Oh, well, we can do this in my area or let's
Carol: Okay. Okay.
Jami: Then we kind of have a reality check around there.
Can you really do this? And sometimes to ask folks about what else is going on in the organization. And
Carol: Okay. Yeah.
Jami: Know, well, this really isn't reasonable for year one. And then we've kind of prioritized and maybe got, got a list, then we can really start thinking about some deadlines and you know, resources that are needed and things like that, but also putting a process in place for. When are we going to look at this again?
Carol: Yes, that is so important.
Jami: Now or every three months and I find, so with some of my clients, I'll meet with them every six months or so, or maybe in the first year at the end of every quarter and sometimes just the fact that that meetings on the schedule prompts people to say, Oh, wait, you know, we were going to send out something in the newsletter about what we're doing.
And so some of that accountability and building that in
Carol: Yeah, I, I talked to people about kind of what they are there, what do they already have on the calendar that they can fit it into? Sometimes you need to put, you know, new special meetings on the calendar, or is it, you know, a regular agenda item X number of at, at some kind of. regular cadence that you're kind of checking in and asking some questions and getting some feedback on where are you?
So, yeah, yeah, but that process and kind of committing to it and, and, and having somebody champion it, I think also is, is very important because it can kind of, you know, any, like any, you know, a new thing, you know, we're, we're, This, this will be coming out after the new year, but you know, at the new year, everyone's like, okay, I'm going to the gym.
So you've got to have those meetings, but then, then it kind of falls by the wayside. So that can be helpful to have somebody else who's like, okay, let's check in. Let's see how we're doing.
Jami: Well, and then with at least one organization I worked with, we, when we set, often it was staff who were going to be responsible for, you know, actually implementing things and doing things, we added sort of a board member champion to each initiative. It got the board more involved in what was happening and it wasn't just some report the executive director was giving, you know, at board meetings. But I think having those To work together and sort of be a little bit accountable to each other. Also was really helpful to make sure things were moving along. And I also think it gave the staff a little bit of visibility with the board. And, the board got to know a little bit more about what was happening. In the organization, we're in a position to champion resources and, you know, ask for changes if things need to be changed. And so, you know, kind of depending on the culture and who's involved there are other ways to kind of create that accountability with some clients. I also work with them on a communication plan for the strategic plan, which you can kind of build in some of those accountability points.
If you know that, every six months you're going to talk about what's happening with the plan at the staff meeting, monthly staff meeting, then you're more likely to try to get something done. Or if you've put it on your website or, you know, things like that. And so I think there are great ways to kind of build, build that in. I do think though, some people are afraid to do that because what if they don't achieve what they do. So if we said we were going to do this thing and we can't do it, I think you just have to be honest about that. You can say, we're, we're not working on this anymore because of X, Y, and Z, or, you know, this other objective has become more of a priority because of funding changes or something in the environment. I think that's okay. And I actually think that kind of and, and honesty is, is something that people want to see particularly in their leadership, but even in organizations that they're supporting.
Carol: Yeah, it brings kind of a, it humanizes all of it and yeah, and all the goal setting literature shows the more accountability partners you have on a project, the better you are more likely you are to do the thing. And the more people you've told and made public. So that communication piece is really important.
So on each episode, I close by asking each guest what permission slip or invitation would they give to nonprofit leaders to invite them to consider, to avoid being a martyr to the cause. And as they work towards building a more inclusive and healthy organizational culture. So either a permission slip or an invitation to help them avoid being a martyr to the cause.
Jami: I mean, I think, you know, I'm probably echoing some things that other folks have said, but I really think I would invite people to prioritize. So I think that sometimes, particularly in leadership roles, we can Become reactive. So you're spending a lot of your day, you know, kind of putting out fires. And, and also trying to do all of these big, innovative things.
And we've got, you know, 10 strategic initiatives that we're trying to run and we're trying to move things forward. But the reality is, you cannot do it alone. Do all of it. And the spreader, the thinner you spread yourself the less you can really put into those things. So I think it's okay to say, you know, my priority is these three things, this, this month or this quarter, this is where I'm going to focus my energy and attention.
And that may mean that there are things that you don't do anymore. whether you have to delegate those things or just say, you know, I used to come to this meeting, but I'm just not going to do it anymore because my priority has to be this. I think that can be really helpful. You do not have to do it all.
And I actually don't think it's useful to your team. If you're doing it, I'll give some of that stuff to somebody else who can. Yeah. learn and grow,
Carol: Exactly, exactly.
Jami: Feel when you get in these leadership roles and you have no idea what you're doing, it's because no one ever let you do any of the things before you got in that role.
So let somebody else lead some of the things that maybe are not a priority for you right now. Not that you don't care about the things, but I think you really need to pick. A handful of things and focus on them at one time.
Carol: Yeah, yeah. 100%. You know, I try every day to think about the three things I'm actually going to get done today, you know, or focus on. And if I get more things done, that's a bonus. But, you know, focusing on those things and longer term as well. So, yeah, definitely great advice. Well, thank you so much.
It's been great having you on.
Jami: Thank you. I've enjoyed it. I've wanted to be on, I've looked jealousy at other people who've been on. And so I'm really, I'm, I'm flattered and excited to have been here.
Carol: All right. Well, thank you so much.
Jami: Yeah. Thank you.
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