Reimagining the nonprofit workplace for remote/hybrid with June Jimenez
12/11/2023
“Innovation doesn’t require physical presence. If you look at some of the most innovative teams that are out here in the world. They don’t all report to the office regularly. That’s the beauty of the human state and the human existence. I think that it’s a very easy way of bringing people to the office and saying, Hey, we need to innovate. We need our teams here. It’s certainly not a prerequisite. Never has been. And I go back to like, Folks, we’ve been remote, like we were remote for years. Did that stop your innovation? Did that stop your operations at all? What has changed? Nothing. I think that it’s a convenient way of bringing people back to the office.”
In episode 87 of Nonprofit Mission: Impact, Carol Hamilton and June Jimenez discuss:
Making remote-work work for your nonprofit organization
Juggling the complex decisions facing nonprofit leaders regarding a potential return to physical offices
Changing employee expectations
We explore the experiences of organizations that are fully remote, emphasizing the heightened need for intentional connection, care, and frequent virtual interactions to maintain a sense of team and culture.
Nonprofits are grappling with diverse approaches, from fully embracing remote work to dealing with financial considerations and strategic implications associated with maintaining physical office spaces. We unpack the myth of culture and innovation being dependent on co-location.
We also explore the particular challenges of newer employees in understanding organizational culture when working remotely, and strategies for leaders to help integrate new staff in a virtual environment.
Highlights:
00:20:30: Decision-making driven by prior investments in physical office spaces
00:21:00 The myth of physical presence as a prerequisite for innovation and organizational culture
00:23:00: Culture exists in both remote and co-located setups
00:24:30:Younger employees challenges with integrating with organizational cultures
00:26:00:Particular challenges for newer generations in navigating office culture remotely
00:28:30:What leaders need to think about in terms of informal nature of information exchange in physical offices vs. remote settings.
00:29:30:Strategies for helping new staff integrate,
00:33:30:Training and development for managers successful adaptation to remote work
Guest Bio:
June Jimenez is an organizational development consultant to mission-focused organizations. June's work focuses on the people, systems, processes and technology needed to help organizations deliver their missions while experiencing tremendous change. June brings over 20 years of professional experience to each engagement gained through her work across the nonprofit, government and private sectors. June is a mother to a 10 year old rabble rouser, partner to a retired police and military professional and passionate about social justice. June received her Bachelor’s degree from Cornell University and received her Executive MBA from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Important Links and Resources:
June Jimenez: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jimenezjune/
Register for the Nonprofit Leadership Roundtable (12/14/23 at 1:00pm eastern): https://www.eventbrite.com/e/760734085127?aff=oddtdtcreator
-
Carol Hamilton: Welcome, June. Welcome to Mission Impact.
June Jimenez: I'm very excited to be here.
Carol: So I'd like to start each conversation with what drew you to the work that you do. What would you say motivates you and what would you describe as your why?
June: When I first came to the work, I was very aware of the privilege that I had. I. Being the daughter of an immigrant, being the daughter of a single parent, and actually making my way through the world and knowing that not everyone who looked like me and, and had my experiences had the same opportunities.
And I wanted to use everything that I was given to be able to make it a little easier for those who came after me, frankly. But then I had a seminal experience. I had a seminal experience, and that happened about 10 years ago at this point. I became pregnant with my daughter and it was before the Affordable Care Act happened, and I was off from my job at that point and I couldn't get health insurance, that was when health insurance was considered a preexisting condition.
So I needed to have paid in for 10 months before they would even give me prenatal care. And I couldn't qualify for Medicaid because I had a severance. So the way that the systems and the structures in our society were set up were such that I literally had to become bankrupt in order to give birth. And I knew what it was like for someone like me and all the opportunities that I had to very quickly see what it was like to have to go to a grocery store.
And pay for milk and groceries off of a WIC check, and only what that means and what that looks like to have to make the choice between rent, utilities, and food. Because unemployment only gave me $1,200 a month and my mortgage was $1,600 a month, I was all of a sudden housing insecure for me to have to navigate what prenatal care looked like in a system where frankly, doctors are overworked.
They didn't have any time to look at someone like me when they had 20 other patients with much more acute problems than me walking through the door. When I looked at that and I looked at what we did to our parents, to our working parents, to people of color and saw how all of these issues were interrelated, that continues to be my why.
When I look at what happened when my childcare costs were more than my mortgage payment each month, that continues to be my why. When I look at society and I see we can do better, we can do better for people that have been marginalized through the systems ? It's not individuals that are being marginalized.
It's the system. It's the way that our society's set up. We can do better, and I wanna be just a small part of that. I want to use what I have and my experiences to just be a small part of that.
Carol: Yeah, that makes so much. Yeah, so much of what you said resonates and just thinking about how all those interlocking systems just. They're built, they're designed, but they're not necessarily designed in a way that makes it possible for people to navigate them to, to serve the purpose that they're supposedly for all of those things.
And , built to keep certain people out, all of the things that you're talking about. And so, yeah, for, for me as well, what, what small part can I play in, in Making it incrementally better. I don't, I don't have illusions that my contribution will, will bring us, dramatic change.
But can I at least be on the side of trying to address the issues and, and, and point them out to people that there are all these interlocking systems that just make it so hard for people in our society to just do the basic things they need to do to take care of themselves and their families.
June: Exactly. Exactly.
Carol: So talk a little bit about the work that you're doing these days and, and just describe a little bit about how that contribution shows up now.
June: So the work that I do, I'm an organizational development consultant and I do this for mission-focused organizations, and I look at the people systems, process and technology so that nonprofits predominantly are, are mission-focused organizations. Can deliver their mission quicker. And, and I really look back at my career and I'm like, how did I get here?
I got here by accident. I was absolutely supposed to be a lawyer by training. I had established my mock trial team in high school. I went to Cornell undergrad and I was pre-law. I was gonna do public policy and then somewhere in between there I pivoted to a lot of business courses and I found I was really, really good at business.
And then I graduated and I didn't want to necessarily do business, but I ended up doing fundraising. And no one goes to college and is like, I wanna fundraise. ? But then in fundraising, everyone's like, where's the money? And I looked up. And intuitively, I was like, the system is broken. You're having a hard time getting money because is your program actually programming?
Are you delivering what you say you're gonna deliver? Are you communicating with your people in a way that they wanna be communicated with in the frequency, the modality, with the tone? Are you investing in them? Are you engaging them in a way that makes sense? Are your finances clear? Are they transparent?
Can you pass an audit? Are you filing your nine nineties? Does your board understand their fee fiduciary duty? Do they understand what they're supposed to be doing for the organization? Do they understand bylaws and committee work? Do they understand they're supposed to be representatives? Is your executive team working well together?
'cause oftentimes I find, I found they weren't . Are they actually working well together? Does your technology support or does it hinder your internal processes? Does your internal team actually talk to each other, or is it a stake of, this is my work, get out of my sandbox. And I spent, even when I didn't have the authority, the power, the experience, I spent so much of my time doing what I now know to be change management work and figuring out, and I would always say, I'm trying to figure out how to get people on the boat and to row in the same direction.
And not only are they rowing the same direction, but they're going to the same destination. And that's what I ended up doing for the better part of 20 years at this point. And I did it across sectors. So now here I am on my own. I'm an entrepreneur and I end up working with organizations again. my background.
I'm predominantly social justice based. My heart is with women, children, bipo communities, l lgbtqia plus marginalized communities, figuring out how to make nonprofit organizations mission-focused organizations. Better at serving their intended constituency more quickly. So I go in and I help typically with a discrete task that then opens up, I'm like, Hey, there's a lot of other stuff happening here.
I could potentially help with that. And I do that for a little bit. And oftentimes I help them with permanent hires so that they can have an ongoing base of work. And really all I do is jumpstart that process and get them back to good.
Carol: Yeah, I love what you talked about , not only getting people on the boat, getting people rowing in the same direction and then helping them understand where they want to go. So you and I both are organization development consultants and so, I focus on that, on definitely that piece where you're working with them on strategic planning. So we may find all those different things that you're talking about in terms of know, all the different things that could be getting in their way of, of doing effective work and So when I, when I'm working with groups, I'm helping them, map out what is that process, what is, what is going on now, where do we wanna go, how do we get there? What's a plan to move us in that direction? And it's interesting because my entry into organization development was also, was more just being in organizations and wondering, We have these lofty goals and missions, and yet we're not necessarily living those values inside our organization. Why is that? And, how could we be more like that and what, what would really help move, help? , I. Have it all be in alignment so that it's more of a multiplier effect instead of those crosswinds that I noticed. So one of the things that's going on a lot with organizations is that, with the pandemic, a sudden shift to remote work. some organizations were already operating that way, and for some it was brand new. And now some are thinking, okay, we've got a, a, lease with a, with a office space, that that's gonna go, gonna be finished in a couple years. What are we gonna do next? Do we wanna continue with a hybrid model, which a lot of organizations are doing?
Or do we wanna be remote first? What are you seeing in terms of that context and, and what people need to do if they, if they do choose to, to shift to that remote first organization?
[Inserted in post-production]
Just as June started telling me about what she was seeing with her clients around their decisions of whether to go remote-first, hybrid or come fully back into the office, a freight train went by my house and interfered with my internet so unfortunately her audio for that portion of the conversation was unusable. So I will paraphrase the points she made.
First she talked about her clients who were remote before the pandemic - not everyone started their remote work journey in March 2023 - there were early adopters who had actually been doing it for years - which actually is lucky for everyone since that meant there were already lots of tools that people could start using that those folks had been developing and using for years.
Yet as people were forced to shift to remote – and of course were having to social distance in the rest of their lives as well – people were craving connection. So informal channels on a Slack or Teams were set up to exchange non-work items - such as a good new series on Netflix. Organizations were also increasing the number of in person check ins bringing the whole team together when possible - if they ordinarily did a yearly retreat - this might now be quarterly. There was also more attention paid to intentional check ins with staff across layers of the organization.
June also described the dilemmas facing leaders as they decided to shift back to a hybrid in person schedule - was how to use the office space that they had. For some they now had much more space than they needed with not everyone in the office all week - with that some decided to fully divest themselves of the space - selling all their furniture too
Others did not do this - or were unable to do this - and so tried subletting their space to other organizations
For others - they wanted everyone back in the space because the organization had made a substantial investment in the office space.
So different leaders and different organizations all made different choices.
[Return to original audio]
June: What I tend to find is that the ones who are very much about bringing their employees back into the office also have employees who are either overtly or covertly looking for a new job.
No one wants to stay in a two hour commute each way to come into an office to sit on a zoom call that they could have taken from home. I think that that's a drawback. I also think that another drawback is, What does this mean? That you've invested all of this money into new paint, new furniture, a new space.
What are you gonna do with all of this capital investiture? And that goes back to the board decision making, ? What is, what is the board saying about it? What is the board feeling about this? Because that's a long-term strategic play, and I don't think that the boards and the executives are necessarily aligned, at least in my experience.
And then you've got folks that are trying to figure it out. Do you do hoteling? Do you make hot desks? Do you limit your footprint? And do you figure out how employees can share offices or shared desks? Is there a way that you can sub? I have other organizations that I know of that have huge office spaces.
But are subleasing it and are saying, Hey, like can we bring in other organizations who maybe need a space but don't wanna make that capital investment? Can they use some of our space so we can recoup some of that funding? So I think in the case of the latter where people are trying to figure it out, there's some really innovative ways that organizations are thinking about a return to office or not.
And they're very much still in that space of how do we figure this out while still ensuring our employees wanna.
Carol: Yeah, I think part of the challenge is that in, in some ways, if the decision making is being driven by the investment that already happened or is ongoing for having an office I. That, in some cases, depending on the services that the organization is providing, having a physical space for people to come to may be very important. In other cases, it may not, it may not be the exact thing that you were describing. Commuting distances to then sit on zoom meetings with people around the country. I mean, really, if I think about my experience in the office, when I worked inside an organization, most of my work was with people across the country.
We were a national organization, and so yes, we were spending a lot of time on meetings like this, and yet I was gathering with my team to sit in an office each day. People talk a lot about the the water cooler effect and, this, this, to me, what feels like a little bit of a myth of, the serendipity that's gonna happen if you're in a, a central location and you're gonna bump into somebody you might not have at the, at the, at the , at the water cooler when you're getting a cup of coffee. And I, I. I'm curious to know from you what I feel like that ends up being a little bit of an excuse of we can't have culture unless we're all in a, in a, in a space together, co-located and I'm just curious what your thoughts about that are.
June: I, I do, I do believe that it's a myth, ? Innovation doesn't require physical presence. I mean, if, if you look at some of the most innovative teams that are out here in the world, They don't all report to the same offices. ? That's the beauty of the human state and human existence. I think that it's a very easy way of bringing people to the office and saying, Hey, we need to innovate.
We need our teams here. That it's certainly not a prerequisite. Never has been. And I, I go back to like, Folks, we've been remote, like we were remote for years. Did that stop your innovation? Did that stop your operations at all? What has changed? Nothing. So I think that it's a convenient way of bringing people back to the office.
Frankly there is some merit to it, especially for younger folks, ? For folks that are newer to the workforce, I think they're having a hard time understanding culture. And we could talk about it . The differences between experienced workers and those that are coming into the workforce.
I think that, especially those that are just starting out, appreciate FaceTime and appreciate the ability to understand the nuances of culture in person. I
Carol: Yeah, and I think for sure like there's culture no matter how you're set up, there's culture, whether you're a remote first organization or whether you're co-located. But I think it was not as front and center when it was assumed that we would have one and, and it would be cultivated and be healthy, which was also a big assumption if we're all in the same space together. I certainly am showing lots of my biases 'cause I, I think that, you can work very well remotely and have done lots of that work. And I think it's all, it all to me goes to the purpose of what do you, for each thing, what are you trying to do? And. Also being remote first doesn't mean that you never, you can never meet in person, ?
You can have those intentional retreats where they're designed and they're, they're, the, the purpose of them is to help people get to know each other, help people Talk about what our culture is, what we want it to be and, and build that together. And I'm curious, say a little bit more about where you're seeing people, entering the workforce initially and not having that What, whatever you might get built in from going to an office and being, in, in lines of desks and offices next to each other, oftentimes, not spending a lot of time talking with your other colleagues except on breaks. I'm, I'm curious, what are some ways that you've seen organizations do a good job of helping newer staff members integrate and, and understand what the culture is?
June: So I think that this is a challenge. It's an intergenerational challenge, frankly, and I think that there are a few things that I've noticed, both in my experience and working with clients. The first is that the newer generations, whether I, the upper parts of millennials are 40. So people who are like, oh, there, there are new, like, not really.
They've been in the workforce for a little bit now. Really looking at the Gen Z folks, and both with Millennial Z folks, what I've realized is that they have been trained on individualism, ? You go through school, you get your own grade, you work hard, you get an output. You're praised for effort, whether you show up and do a good job or not.
And I think in the workforce, when you're working on a project, very rarely. Is your work individually based? Very, very rarely. So when you provide feedback to them, they're not used to having feedback that requires multiple layers of iteration. That requires multiple ways of thinking, that requires a collaboration that is beyond their own individual contribution and the reflection of their individual contribution and their feedback.
So I think first and foremost is like figuring out and teaching. that, like your grade, quote unquote, relies upon other people, and that's something that. It's hard to transition into coming out of school and into the workforce generally, but even more so when you don't know who to reach out to.
You don't know what their temperament is, like, you're not quite sure how to navigate that introduction, and you're also not quite sure how to ask for help in a way that doesn't make you seem like you don't know what you're doing rather. I just wanna improve upon what I've done. So I think that is one thing that I've seen in terms of a generational gap.
And one frankly, which would be easier for younger folks to be in the office and figure out through contextual clues how people are, are interacting and who to go to and who to speak to, and what people's temperaments are like generally. I think the other thing is in terms of understanding culture ?
When people talk about culture, it's this amorphous term. What exactly is culture? Well, culture of course, are the policies, but there are also unwritten norms of what happens in an office, ? So people know not to go to June after four o'clock for anything administrative because June's gonna say no.
Well, how do you do that? You only know that by dealing with June, both formally and informally. That's not written anyway. People know to only go to Carol about things that have to do with strategic planning from the hours of nine to 11, because she does her best work. Well, how do you don't, ?
that because you've interacted with Carol, you've worked with Carol. People generally know that that's the best way to get an answer out of Carol. And I think that's also hard for people to pick up contextually. Over virtual means. So I think that's what people are looking for, and yearning for.
And, but I also think that there's this question of advancement, ? People wanna do it . I feel like people come into jobs and they wanna do a good job. They wanna be seen, they wanna be seen for being helpful. And it's a lot harder to be seen, I think, especially if you're more junior in your career.
By those that are executive management when they're not walking by a conference room and constantly see that June is in all of the key meetings, or they don't constantly hear, oh, like June keeps on being brought up as the project. And I think that's what they're also looking for in terms of advancement.
Carol: Yeah, I can see it's, it's almost, a lot of people talk about that water cooler moment, but it's more the, if I'm in my cubicle, I'm a junior staff person, I can swivel around and ask the person who's been here a year longer than me, well, if I need to x what, what, what's my next step? And those kinds of questions that you might be more hesitant to, feels It feels very low stakes to just turn around and ask someone. It may feel more high stakes to send a slack message to, your count the person who's kind of, would be the equivalent, remotely or get on a call or, even make a phone call to someone to have a chat about something, which is certainly not, not as common these days.
June: It feels so much more formal, ? Because to get on a video call, you've actually gotta get on their calendar and you've gotta
Carol: .
June: As opposed to swiveling around. Absolutely.
Carol: So what are some things that leaders can do to help newer staff people if they are in that, in that remote first situation? I
June: So I've heard a couple of things, both formal and informal, ? So, and, and these are things that folks can consider. One is that, especially if you have a remote first environment, some offices that I know of are bringing people in once a month to just have a social day. And for a lot of people they're like, okay, I'll come in once a month, but don't expect me to get any work done because you have designated this as breakfast.
And lunch will be with teams or groups of people or duos or trios, to really build those connections and then they'll have social interactions just built into that one day so that people can . On in
Track 1: a
June: formal way to figure out how to forge those relationships. And they know they come prepared.
And I also think that that comes with the different neurodiversity that you see in the workplace. Some people need to be very prepared to show up in a group of people and know that this is the day and know that they're gonna put their best foot forward. Whereas other folks that maybe don't need that are very much like, oh, this is amazing.
So I think having scheduled times like that, whether they're on a monthly basis. Biweekly basis is extremely helpful. That way people can figure out how to leverage that. I think also having brown bags, ? Whether they're virtual or not, I always was a fan of, people will always gather for food, especially if it's food that they like.
Can you send lunches to people? Can you have a one-on-one with them? Can you have a brown bag on a quarterly basis, a monthly basis, some way? For executive leaders, you could invite anyone in the organization up to 10 people, 15 people, doesn't really matter so that they can get to know you and do it over food, almost like you are having it at a conference room per se.
I think that's also important. And then finally having an opportunity to just pop in during team meetings I think is also important. So if you're the. Of, of a team. When your team is whiteboarding things or workshopping things, can you pop into that workshop and sit in, and have that informal dialogue?
If you're the head of a department, can you go into some of your subordinate team meetings on an informal basis? And if you're the head of the organization, how do you do those informal one-on-one check-ins, particularly with your most junior folks so that they can feel seen and heard? The flip side to that is that it could also be anxiety inducing, ?
It could stop the free flow of information because all of a sudden you've got this executive that's sitting there. But to know that, Hey, I'm, I'm just here and I'm here to listen and show them a couple of times that you're here to listen and that they can. Open up would be extremely helpful.
Carol: And I'm, I'm thinking of also about your comment around how When folks are inside an office, they can observe people. They can observe people. In other meetings, they can swivel around and ask a colleague, well, what's the best way to approach June about this? But teams can also have explicit conversations about those things. And , I've seen people like, Write up a a, an operating procedure of like what works with each person and, and just having a series of questions where you actually talk about those things so that it becomes more explicit instead of some people being able to observe and infer what that is and o and others, not being so sure to, to, .
Yes, there's a lot of stuff that generally has been unwritten. It hasn't needed to be formalized. It doesn't need to be explicit 'cause people could kind of learn through observation. But I think one of the big challenges with this shift is helping, I. People understand what needs to be more explicit in a remote first environment or even in a hybrid environment. And helping leaders and managers learn what they need to do differently in those environments versus what they've been used to and wasn't in front of, wasn't top of mind in how they were proceeding. I mean, I think a lot of my bias is, well, if, if we could do more development and training around these things, people could be more successful than just throwing them in and assuming it's all gonna be the same and they'll figure it out.
June: And, and I absolutely love that. I think that's where the od the organizational development comes out from the book. Us and I always say like, can we make the implicit explicit? And a lot of the time the answer is no. And it's no because of the level of comfort that the managers and the leaders have. And a lot of that comes with coaching and saying like, I.
This is, so maybe sometimes, especially if you're in a remote first environment, like, let me make the implicit explicit. I'm expecting it by this day and this time at this level of quality because I have these five things that will come afterwards and you doing a good job at this point, allows me to do the five things that I need to do after I receive this deliverable.
I think that, that, that's important, but I think that we miss the second part of saying, I need this by this date and this time. ? And, and not making it explicit as to the implications as to why I need it on this date and this time and at this level of quality. And that takes a lot of coaching.
It takes a lot of understanding, it takes a lot of repetition. And it takes a leadership style that is. Not necessarily a directive. But one that is explicit and a lot particularly in our society, a lot of it is nuanced. And I feel like if you are very direct, what you're seeing is not nice.
. As opposed to just stating like, this is what it is. It's not meant to be mean, it's not meant to be harsh. It's meant so that everyone understands what we're working from together.
Carol: And then on the flip side , creating or, or Staff having the, the confidence to, ask for clarification if there isn't that, that clarity and, that can be, that can feel challenging and can feel maybe anxiety producing as you as you described. But I think, There have been plenty of times when I've had to say, wait a second, let me, let me just, this is what I heard, is that what we're both agreeing to?
Let's, let's make sure that, and to, to take that moment and especially at the end of any meeting and just, make sure that you capture those. It's so easy to just move on or not, not to wanna feel like, well, I must be dumb if I didn't get it. Well, no, probably other people in the room didn't quite get it either, so. Ask the clarifying question.
June: That's , that's . I, I've always told my teams, I'm like, I don't necessarily value answers, I value the question. Are you asking the questions? Because it tells me that you'll get to the answers.
Carol: Yeah. Yeah. So as I'm coming to the end of each episode, I like to ask each guest what. Permission slip, would they give to nonprofit leaders, or what would they invite them to consider to avoid being a martyr to the cause and as they work towards cultivating a healthier organizational culture? So either a permission slip or an invitation.
June: Oh, I've been, I have been really thinking about this over the past few weeks. The invitation that I have is to say, am I furthering white supremacy or these actions? And it's a hard one to swallow because I feel like the nonprofit industrial complex furthers white supremacy through all of the interactions that we have.
And it could be things that. Are as simple as fixing, like can we post salary ranges on these job postings, or is the way that I'm communicating particularly to people of color, one that is directive and subjugates them to a yes no because they're beholden to me for a paycheck. Is the way that I'm engaging with the community and the folks that I'm looking to serve.
One that is versus one that is one directional. And what are ways of working and what are ways that, even from philanthropy, ? Are we requiring you to do what at, at this point, ? Reports and proposals that show that we don't trust that you're gonna use this funding in a way that best since you're the one serving the.
Constituency that you're serving. So that's my invitation. My invitation is to really look at what we're all doing collectively and ask ourselves if it's actually furthering white supremacy or dismantling it.
Carol: Yeah. 'cause that's where we started. All those systems that are designed in a way that That, just are designed to make life hard for people. And then all the ways that we're used to working, all the assumptions that are built in , we've unpacked some of them, but that's an even, even larger invitation.
So I really appreciate that.
June: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me on your podcast, Carol.
Carol: It was a great conversation. Thanks so much.
LISTEN + SUBSCRIBE
APPLE PODCASTS ● SPOTIFY