Practicing Presence in Polarized Times for nonprofits and associations with Danielle Marshall
1/27/2025
“It can literally be, pause for two seconds. I totally wanna hear what you’re gonna say. What is my role in this conversation?
The second that I ask that question, I can reset my own expectations. I might have the solution. In my mind I’m like, oh my gosh, this is gonna fix everything. And not what the person needs.”
Polarization isn’t just a political issue—it’s a leadership challenge, and this episode examines how nonprofit leaders can respond with presence rather than reactivity.
In this Learning Out Loud episode of Nonprofit Mission: Impact, Carol Hamilton and Danielle Marshall explore how nonprofit leaders can navigate today’s polarized environment with greater awareness, empathy, and intention. Together they:
Explore the tension between “winning” difficult conversations and staying grounded, clarifying purpose, and choosing ‘right relationship’ over being right.
Unpack how polarization shows up not just in public discourse, but in workplaces, boardrooms, and personal relationships—and
Discuss how small, practical practices like pausing, setting intentions, and taking responsibility for impact can help leaders build bridges instead of deepening divides.
Episode Highlights
[00:00:27] Polarization Moves From the Headlines Into Daily Life
Carol frames the episode by noting how polarization has shifted from abstract commentary into everyday nonprofit work—showing up in meetings, organizations, and personal relationships.
[00:01:20] Being Right vs. Being in Right Relationship
Carol reflects on how asking about one’s role in a conversation can surface a deeper choice: Are you trying to win, or are you trying to stay in relationship? The episode challenges the false binary and invites leaders to lead with curiosity rather than certainty.
[00:02:28] The Emotional Toll of Polarization
The conversation acknowledges how exhausting polarization can be, especially when it touches on fundamental issues like dignity, human rights, and belonging. Listening, empathy, and responsibility are offered as tools for transformation rather than avoidance.
[00:03:00] Modeling Constructive Dialogue as a Leader
Carol and Danielle emphasize that nonprofit leaders set the tone. Grounding in values, practicing small skills like pausing and clarifying, and naming intentions can help leaders model healthier conversations across difference.
[00:06:18] Polarization Is Everywhere—Even When It’s Not Directed at You
Danielle shares that polarization often isn’t personal but is present in nearly every context—from family conversations to client work—making it impossible to ignore.
[00:08:16] Entering Conversations With Awareness
Danielle highlights the importance of noticing where you’re coming from when you enter a conversation: Are you seeking understanding, or are you preparing to argue? That awareness alone can shift the interaction.
[00:09:22] Learning How to Listen Requires Practice
Carol describes structured “connection circles” designed to teach deep listening—underscoring that listening is a skill most people were never explicitly taught, yet desperately need.
[00:11:31] How Social Media Amplifies Division
The pair discuss how algorithms reward outrage and negativity, reinforcing polarization and creating a false sense of connection that often leaves people more isolated and reactive.
[00:13:00] Conflict Entrepreneurs and the Cost of Engagement
Danielle introduces the idea of “conflict entrepreneurs”—those who profit from division—and encourages leaders to be mindful of who benefits from polarizing messages and how engagement fuels the system.
[00:15:01] Choosing Curiosity Over Combat
Carol reflects on noticing when she gets “hooked” into conflict and how slowing down, breathing, and choosing curiosity opens up more productive options.
[00:16:44] Resetting Mid-Conversation
Danielle explains how pausing during tense moments—naming the tension and suggesting space—can help both parties regain clarity and calm.
[00:18:25] Owning Your Triggers
A key leadership responsibility is managing one’s own reactions. Danielle stresses that others cannot own your triggers; recognizing when you’re not in the right headspace is an act of accountability, not weakness.
[00:19:18] Learning From Missteps and Making Repair
Both emphasize that mistakes are inevitable. What matters is reflecting on patterns, learning from them, and returning to repair when harm occurs.
[00:22:02] Clarifying Meaning Instead of Making Assumptions
Asking people to define terms, rephrase statements, or clarify intent helps prevent misunderstandings and keeps conversations grounded in shared understanding rather than imagined stories.
[00:23:42] Defining Polarization
Danielle defines polarization as holding opposite positions—and also how willing (or unwilling) we are to hear one another. She introduces a key reflective question: “Am I willing to be changed by this conversation?”
[00:25:12] The Stories We Make About “Those People”
Carol reflects on how easy it is to turn a single belief into a caricature of an entire person—making genuine dialogue nearly impossible.
[00:27:02] Setting Intentions Before Difficult Conversations
Preparation matters. Danielle encourages leaders to ask: What do I want to be true at the end of this conversation? Often, the answer is staying in right relationship.
[00:30:22] What Does “Right Relationship” Mean?
Danielle describes right relationship as acting in alignment with values like trust, honesty, and care—and being willing to repair harm when it occurs.
[00:31:42] Accountability Without Punishment
The episode challenges punitive notions of accountability, reframing it as shared responsibility and vulnerability focused on strengthening relationships.
[00:34:10] Polarization as a Chasm—and the Skills That Build Bridges
Carol describes polarization as a gulf between opposing poles. Together, they name the bridge-building skills—pausing, breathing, intention-setting—that make connection possible.
[00:35:47] Start With One Practice
Rather than trying to do everything at once, Danielle invites listeners to choose one strategy and practice it consistently until it becomes embedded.
[00:36:23] Closing Conversations With Care
Danielle commits to practicing intentional closings that affirm care and relationship, even without agreement. Carol commits to greater intentionality at the beginning of conversations.
[00:37:24] Begin Where You Are
The episode closes with a reminder: leadership growth doesn’t require perfection. Begin where you are, choose one practice, and build from there.
Guest Bio:
Danielle Marshall is an equity strategist and executive coach committed to helping organizations and leaders embed inclusive practices into their operations in meaningful and sustainable ways. As the founder of Culture Principles, she designs tailored strategies that strengthen team dynamics, enhance problem-solving, and cultivate inclusive leadership. Danielle also coaches senior executives to deepen their cultural competencies, fostering greater empathy, effective communication, and equitable decision-making. An ICF-certified Executive Coach and engaging speaker, she brings extensive experience in organizational development, equipping leaders with the skills and confidence to navigate diverse work places with impact and integrity.
Important Links and Resources:
Related Episodes:
E 117: Grounded presence for nonprofit leaders in chaotic times
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Carol Hamilton: Well welcome Danielle. Welcome back to Non-Profit Mission Impact.
Danielle Marshall: Thank you. It is always a pleasure to be here with you.
Carol: Yeah, so much fun. So we're doing another, what we're calling Learning Out Loud episodes where we talk about kind of the current moment, what's going on. And when we talked before, we talked about it. Talking about polarization and it was funny, like I know it's been in the MO news so much for now, multiple years and then even more so.
But for me, I'm like, I don't know that I experience it on a day-to-day basis. So I'm curious what your experience is.
Danielle: I am, I'm just sitting with that statement that you made that you don't have to experience this. I feel like that's all I experience. You know, it's, and it's not necessarily that I feel like the polarization that I'm experiencing is coming towards me. I think it is in the conversations that I have, whether they be with family, friends, clients even watching the news, right?
Like, it just feels like in pretty much every dimension possible right now, if you make a particular point, someone's gonna say, Nope, I don't believe that. I believe this other thing.
Carol: Mm.
Danielle: So I think that's where I'm really seeing polarization come alive. And at this moment in particular. the US the issues of which we are polarized around, like whether it is economics, it's healthcare, it's human rights, it's dignity. They feel bigger than ever before.
Carol: Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I feel like I feel it and see it kind of in the wider sphere but it's probably the bubble that I'm in. I probably am very, very nice. Bubble. And maybe I'm not having conversations with folks. You know, when I say hello to my neighbors, I'm not necessarily talking to them about politics or anything controversial.
So perhaps that's part of it as well. Can you gimme some examples of some of the things that you're running into?
Like, where do I start?
Danielle: is exactly the feeling I had. Where do I start on that one? I, you know, I'm, I am seeing it. I think the most acutely that I experience it right now is when it comes to politics.
Carol: Yeah.
Danielle: It is. Showing up in just ways that people just don't value other people. And what's concerning to me about this is I do believe that at the end of the day, there are shared values that live under the surface. But the only way that we can get to these shared values is to be willing to listen to other people and to really, you know, I was thinking about this before we jumped on this call. I think it is also being really acutely aware of where you sit when you enter these conversations. Like, am I here to gain understanding or am I here to argue a particular point? And unfortunately what I'm seeing more and more is that we're here to argue a particular point, which just doesn't leave a whole lot of space for understanding different perspectives.
Carol: Probably will have the opposite effect of them. That's what you want. Right. It actually will probably push the person, even if they didn't feel that strong about it, they may like, feel stronger because you're, they feel like you're trying to persuade them or, or convince them. And so they're gonna get more stuck on their own, whatever they hold is their point of view. It's interesting you talked about listening and I don't, I don't know that we have a lot of spaces where people have necessarily learned that skill. And I am involved with my faith community as we're gonna be having our first meeting tonight is something that's being called connection circles.
And one of the core elements of it is really active or you know, and deep listening. And so, but we've had to put lots of structures around that because it's not how people kind of. Are used to interacting. So, you know, you have three minutes to discuss. We're not gonna, you know, everybody's gonna have a chance to talk before the next person jumps in again, you know, all sorts of kind of rules that we don't necessarily pay attention to in just casual, you know, normal conversation that kind of create the context for that, for that listening that people don't necessarily experience on kind of the day-to-day basis.
Danielle: Yeah. I appreciate that you're having that opportunity, but also even in how you're describing the structure of it, because I would agree, like in normal day life, there aren't rules for when you run into someone on the street or a family member calls you on the phone and you weren't prepared for that conversation.
Like how do you move into that space? you know, I'm thinking about it more. Along the lines of like, there are certain times we know we're getting ready to get into a difficult conversation. And so like what do we do from that, that angle? And so what you've sort of referenced, I think is the practice that comes before we deal with real life conversations, if you will.
Right? This is a safe container that you have. There are rules that everybody is going to agree to abide by for the purpose of this discussion. And I think those opportunities to practice are really meaningful. 'cause even if you thought about it. Teaching, maybe a child to ride a bike, okay. There are things that are gonna happen.
We are definitely gonna fall off the bike. We're gonna go too fast at some point. We don't know how the brakes work or how to steer the practice is what prepares you ultimately to be able to do this successfully. So like I wouldn't enroll someone in a, you know, a bike race if they're just starting out. And so what does that mean for us on a level of even having conversations? And I have this belief that like, I think we take this for granted because from the time that we are young children, most of us are able to speak. So if you're able to speak, you're like, oh, I've mastered this conversation thing. But yet
Carol: No.
Danielle: we
Carol: Right.
Danielle: No. We
Carol: We have not. We have not. And I guess it was a couple years ago I watched, there was some documentary about, you know, social media and how the companies and the algorithms really, you know, latch onto conflict and they amplify those things and the ways in which.
Danielle: which
Carol: That had increased polarization across the society and so that it was at that point where I was like, okay, I'm noticing myself.
Being addicted to this, I'm scrolling and not enjoying it. Not like, and it's nothing relevant. And then seeing that impact. So I was like, okay, I have to, I have to stop, I have to get off of these things. And I definitely can't say that I miss it. It's, it's really it, it's amazing. What, what that. Shift that everybody's now or so many people are, are, are communicating or not communicating or having this kind of false sense of connection and communication through platforms like that.
Danielle: Yeah, good for you for noticing. 'cause I think so many people still haven't caught onto the fact that they're influenced by
Carol: Yeah.
Danielle: doom scrolling and the articles and the algorithms do in fact reward this negativity.
Carol: Yeah.
Danielle: Yeah,
Carol: It's just like really, our brains are already wired for negativity, so we don't need more of it, but somehow, apparently we do.
Danielle: And, and to that end, there is a term called conflict entrepreneur. Have you heard of that
Carol: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: Okay. So, the idea behind conflict entrepreneurs are, there are people who literally stand to gain financially from a power standpoint by throwing conflict into the, you know, the, the atmosphere. And
Carol: Hmm.
Danielle: when there are challenges that we come across, you have to also ask yourself like, who is behind this messaging? What is it that they're ultimately trying to do? And like how do they benefit? Because if it gets you to buy a particular product or to follow somebody, you know, everything on social media nowadays is like monetized on some level.
And so if I get a hundred thousand likes, because I've said this. Crazy thing and put this out again into the world and people are gravitating to it and folks don't understand this, that whether you like it or you do not like the content, once you engage in it, if you comment on it, et cetera, you
Carol: Or even if you just like the look. And they can tell that you've paused
Danielle: Yes.
Carol: watch the video or, you know, read the thing, whatever it is.
Danielle: Yeah.
Carol: It's tracking that.
Danielle: It's tracking it, but there are people who are literally profiting from it financially because you spent 30 seconds watching this video. I caught myself doing this the other day. I put my phone down and I had my earbuds in, and I walked to the kitchen and I realised I'm still listening to this video.
And now it's played like four times. And I was like, who just made all this money off of the fact that I was lazy and forgot to close my phone? You know, and I, it, it's, it's kind of like funny, it thankfully was not that kind of video where it, you know, it's seeding negative things into my head, but nonetheless my inattentiveness to closing my phone before I got up meant somebody was monetizing them.
Carol: Mm. It's nuts. It's nuts.
Danielle: Absolutely. So
Carol: how are, how, go ahead. Go ahead.
Danielle: Well, I was gonna ask you like, what have you found helpful? I know that you're saying that you are not necessarily encountering polarization so much at this moment in time. But when you do, what do you find helpful as strategies to like, help you navigate it?
Carol: Oh, I think so, you know. If I, if I get into the, I'm gonna fight this person and I'm gonna lean in and, you know I can definitely get caught up in that. And even though there's a part of my brain that's like, this is not helpful, this is not helpful, but I'm like, you know, in it. So I think, you know, it's, it's all the things about being mindful of just like, take a breath, notice how you've gotten hooked, and see what other choices you might have.
The first one's probably gonna be, you know, listening and, and also being curious about where they're coming from instead of trying to impose my point of view.
Danielle: I definitely appreciate that. You know, again, like I, I go back to sort of where I was a moment ago with this opportunity to ask ourselves, before we go into these conversations, what are we here to do?
Carol: Hmm.
Danielle: with them? Do I wanna understand them? Am I trying to solve the problem?
And again, like I liken this even to relationships we have with spouses or dating partners. As the person's like, Hey, I need to talk to you. Like, what are you anticipating that conversation is about? Like, is it a connection? Is it that I wanna just understand what my partner needs at this moment or how they're feeling?
Or am I walking in immediately like, oh, I'm, I'm gonna solve this problem for you because how I
Carol: Oh, that's a trap that I can fall into all the time. Oh my goodness. And they're like, no, I really just, I just need to. Talk.
Danielle: Sometimes we just gotta get things off our chest and like it's so much easier just to ask someone, even if they launch into the, let me just tell you about what happened in my day. It can literally be, pause for two seconds. I totally wanna hear what you're gonna say. What is my role in this conversation?
Carol: Mm.
Danielle: The second that I ask that question, I can reset my own expectations. I might have the solution. In my mind I'm like, oh my gosh, this is gonna fix everything. And not what the person needs.
Carol: Right. I love that question. What is my role in this conversation? And that also just provides you No, it's not easy at all. 'cause you gotta remember to say it,
Danielle: Yes.
Carol: if you do, if you do, it also just like gives a beat. With you. It's like reminding yourself that you may not know what your role is, you know?
Danielle: Yeah. Being able to take that pause, I think both before you get into the thick of things, but then also during the conversation, because I think the other thing that I've learned just from. Finding myself in a host of polarizing conversations is to pause just long enough to say to the person, like, Hey, I appreciate that we're having this, and it seems like maybe we've gotten a little bit off topic, or we're getting into an area that's tense. Can we pause for a moment and come back to it after we've both had a chance to reflect? Right? So where you put the pause, I think you can use it in multiple situations, but understanding you can in fact reach for that.
Carol: Right. And when either person is kind of in their phase or, you know, laying back or whatever it is, whatever the fight, flight fawn response may be when you're in it, you're not thinking clearly. So just taking that beat, taking a pause. Coming back. Let's revisit this. Gives everybody a chance to just take a breath and calm down a little bit.
Danielle: We just need space.
Carol: Yeah.
Danielle: You know, I've had moments in my own life, both professionally and personally, where the thing is, what the person said actually isn't the controversy.
Carol: Hmm.
Danielle: It could have been the language that they use that was triggering to me. It could have been the context of what happened in my day earlier.
You know, I'm not maybe in the best head space to have this particular conversation. They don't know any of that, so as a result of the fact that they don't know this, the responsibility is on me to manage that for myself. No one else can own your triggers. If I'm triggered by it, I need to address it. I've had a bad day, the duty is on me to say like, Hey, you know, I do wanna have the conversation. Perhaps not at this exact moment. Can we find a time to talk later?
Carol: Yeah. Yeah. And that's tough. I mean, I don't, again, I don't think people have much practice at doing these things.
Danielle: Yeah. But what you just said is the most important thing you have to practice.
Carol: Hmm.
Danielle: up one day knowing how to do this. And even for those of us who like to lean into this as a practice on a regular basis, we still don't get it right every day.
Carol: Well, exactly like you. You're gonna practice, you're gonna screw up. And so then don't say, oh, well that didn't work.
Danielle: Yeah. But even after screwing up, I still think that there is space for us to learn from it, because now the question is, now. For us to reflect on the context of the conversation. What surprised me if anything, like what I learned maybe about my own patterns. Like if I have this particular conversation or I spoke, I speak to this particular person, do I have a pattern of behavior I shut down? Right? And, ultimately those reflections sort of should be driving us to this place of like, what will I do differently next time?
Carol: And to go back to the person if you have that relationship, to say, you know, I was thinking about our conversation and I didn't like how I reacted and, you know I'm thinking of a conversation I had last night where I was really, I was.
Danielle: I was getting
Carol: 'cause I was getting confused by the way the person was kind of laying out what they were saying.
But I let my frustration show more than what was, what was really there was. I really wanted to understand what they were saying.
Danielle: Yeah.
Carol: So that comes from a caring place. But what was showing up was this err, fussy, frustrated person, you know, who's like, you're not telling it in a way that I can understand.
It makes you feel wrong, you know,
Danielle: Yeah,
Carol: Like, no, it has nothing to do with you. Let me. So let me come back and so let me put that on my to-do list. I need to go back and have a conversation with that person and say, I apologize. I let that show and not, you know, the fact that I really do wanna understand what you're telling me.
Danielle: Absolutely. And I'm not putting you on the spot with it, but as you are bringing this example up, like what does surface for you? Like, is there anything that you would, since this is now on your to-do list, how would you approach the conversation now?
Carol: Well, I think I, you know, just say I, I was thinking about how that conversation that we had yesterday and I don't think that I had the impact that I was in, you know. Looking for, because I allowed this part to be on the surface or to be visible versus, you know, the caring part that wants to hear and wants to listen and wants to understand
Danielle: Yeah,
Carol: And so let's try it again.
Danielle: I, I love that. Right. And Anne, I think what you are
Carol: And so, and then also I'm thinking like, and in the future when I feel myself getting frustrated just to say, okay, can we slow this down? Just saying calmly, like, I'm getting confused. Run that through, you know, run that by me again. Whatever. In a, in a, in a little less judgy tone than I had.
Danielle: Offering you major, congratulations on that. 'cause that one is harder
Carol: Right.
Danielle: the judgment.
Carol: Oh man.
Danielle: like I find myself now having to ask people to clarify what they mean. And
Carol: Hmm.
Danielle: That, it can be as simple as like, how do you define this term? Like, what does that mean to you personally?
Because before we go any further in the conversation, I just wanna make sure we have the same understanding, so I
Carol: Right
Danielle: with the person's definition. I just need to understand what they're thinking about.
Carol: where they're coming from.
Danielle: And,
Carol: Yeah.
Danielle: To now say, okay, I see this slightly differently, right? Because that's now going to enter sort of how I'm seeing it.
I don't think it's enough to gather their information without sharing with them how you define it. But the other thing that I'm finding is that I just have to ask people to rephrase their questions sometimes or their statements. Like, I, I think I understood you, but I, I wanna be clearer. Can you say that in a different way for me? You know, again, like I'm, I'm trying to think about the intention behind the conversation. If I'm there to understand, then I can't walk away. Like everybody's had this moment where maybe you're in a crowded room and someone's saying something to you and you sort of hear them, but you don't, and you kind of smile and ha ha, that's cute.
Like, whatever. You have no idea what they've said to you,
Carol: Right. Smile and nod. Smile and nod. Not helpful.
Danielle: It's not helpful. And so if I'm there to understand. Clearly there is no understanding at that moment, and I need to find whether it is quieter spaces or a reframed, you know, particular statement. How do I get to this place of understanding with you?
Carol: Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's interesting. I was thinking, well, we never defined polarization, so how are you defining it?
Danielle: Love it. I love it. Full circle moment. So for me, polarization, and I don't have a technical definition of this though
Carol: Sure.
Danielle: Now that you're prompting this, I may have to go back and look at that again.
Carol: Right.
Danielle: it really means when we are on two opposite extremes of an issue,
Carol: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: right? So again, it's issue agnostic, but we just have very different beliefs. And I think the other thing for me, with polarization beyond just maybe holding different beliefs, I also think there's something about us in that moment, like how we're reacting to it, how willing we are to hear that other person out, how willing we are to let assumptions go, let judgments go in that moment and really be open to learning you know. A question that I might ask as a coach, but often will ask to myself is, am I willing to be changed by this conversation? And I'm not saying to put your values aside, right? Like,
Carol: Right.
Danielle: Are, those are likely gonna remain true. I'm not saying you have to come meet the other person, but am I willing to be changed?
Because sometimes even when we are on polar opposites of an issue, someone is going to introduce some new information you actually have to sit with,
Carol: Hmm.
Danielle: you might not fully agree with it, but you, you're
Carol: Right?
Danielle: pause long enough to be like, look, you know what? Let me consider that.
Carol: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: And that one's hard, Carol.
Carol: Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. Well, and I'm thinking also, you know, so you're on, you're on polar opposites of some, some issue, some something, and I what I think also for me, what happens is I take that one issue and I make a whole story about who the person is.
Danielle: Yes.
Carol: on their belief around that one issue.
Danielle: Yeah.
Carol: And so it becomes this caricature.
I don't even see the person in front of me anymore because they're just this caricature of this other than I'm thinking of who has that belief, you know?
Danielle: Yeah.
Carol: And that makes it very hard to like to have an actual conversation with another human being. If you act in your head, they're like some cartoon character.
Danielle: Yeah, it, and I think it happens more than we give credit to, because even in the statements that people throw out, you know how those people are, you know what they believe. Right? And
Carol: Mm.
Danielle: that we start saying these things, if you can listen to your language, you are in fact inventing a story
Carol: Right, exactly.
Danielle: Such things as those people in that way because. There are many different personalities. There are many different belief systems. Even within a given identity or belief system, we don't function the same. And so what does that mean to tease it out and get closer to a more complete truth. And I say more because I don't think we're ever gonna get too full truth, but like, how
Carol: No. Yeah.
Danielle: The truth?
Carol: Yeah.
Danielle: Yeah. There's just, there's a whole lot in that. And I, it's, it's one of those things where I even catch myself pretty frequently. Well, I shouldn't say it's frequent, but I catch myself enough to notice when I'm heading in that direction. And I think for me, as we talk about patterns, there are particular topics that might lend themselves better to a story in my mind.
Carol: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Danielle: I don't, I almost don't wanna hear what the opposite thing is, and I have to reckon with myself on that because it's like, Hey Danielle, what? What is going on for you? That you're not willing at this moment to hear this person out?
Carol: Yeah. Yeah. All right. I'm blank.
Danielle: That's okay. I can take a sip. You know, here's something else, Carol, that I was. I was thinking about working with a lot of organizations on diffusing some of them, the polarization is, I think that there is the preparation that one can do before you get to that meeting. So again, what's my goal here? Is it understanding?
Is it proving a point? It's also grounding ourselves,
Carol: Mm. Absolutely. Yeah.
Danielle: What do I want to be true at the end? Like if I have an intention, it might be again, that I'm getting to understanding, but also an intention might be I wanna be in the right relationship with this person when the conversation is over.
Carol: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Danielle: And I don't think that we pause long enough to do that. And I will make a distinction here because I think there are moments where. We entered these conversations and we didn't know the conversation was gonna happen, right? If your
Carol: Sure.
Danielle: rings and you weren't prepared for that call, all of a sudden you're thrust into it, right?
You're in the world, you know, you're out and about picking your kid up from school, or you're at the bank, somebody says something you don't know that conversation's gonna happen. So it's harder to ground yourself in real time. That may be when I pause more than ever, but
Carol: Yeah.
Danielle: plenty of times where we have the opportunity. be proactive, I have
Carol: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Danielle: with a employee or a client or maybe, you know, it's the holidays are, you know, not too far away and so like maybe someone is saying, Hey, you know, I know every time we sit down at that table, someone in the family's gonna say something I totally disagree with. There is some preemptive, like pre-gaming, if you will, that we can do to get ourselves settled. So I think that's a big piece of it for me. But then there's also like, once we're, we're there, like how do we stay curious in the moment, right? Even down to, like, I, I was at a conference the other day and I watched someone, they were on stage. And they were very engaging. They just shared all of their knowledge, et cetera. And then there was a question from the audience, and it's like, the second that question came up, I was like, Ooh, that's a doozy. then I watched the person change and they crossed their arms and their, you know, the body language got it just, it shifted.
Their shoulders kind of went up. And I'm like, okay, so if I'm being open even beyond my words, I notice that. I
Carol: Yeah.
Danielle: audience,
Carol: Yeah.
Danielle: to do with me, but I was like, that's interesting.
Carol: Yeah. Yeah.
Danielle: So like, what are we, what are we doing to model, if you will, the calmness, the openness that we want?
Because ultimately, like I'm, I'm trying to create a safe environment for both myself and this other individual. I wanna hear you, but if I look close to you, will you believe that? I
Carol: Oh yeah. I wanna hear you.
Danielle: Exactly. Or I'm not, I'm no longer making eye contact with you and I'm, you know, I'm, I'm looking down or I'm doing these other things like I am signaling without issuing a single word. In this conversation the same way anymore.
Carol: And sometimes, you know, you have to take a beat and that, that can be like looking awake, you know, gathering yourself, taking a deep breath to ground yourself. But I think, you know, the setting your intention, if, if it is a conversation that you know is coming up that you know is gonna be challenging or a situation that you know is gonna be challenging being able to kind of envision it.
Think through like best case scenario, worst case scenario. So you're kind of repaired for those polls, if you will. Like the,
Danielle: Yeah.
Carol: could imagine either side. And then you talk, you used a particular term and I'm right relations,
Danielle: Hmm.
Carol: be in the right relationship with that person at the end of the conversation.
Can you say a little bit more about what you mean by that?
Danielle: Yeah, I think the right relationship is going to mean different things to different people. For me, I greatly value my relationships. I want them to be open, honest, trust, you know, trusting. And so if I want these things to be true. Then to be in the right relationship with someone means that I have honored these values that I espouse and I've created the conditions to the best of my ability to be in the right relationship. It also means that if I've caused harm in that conversation, that I'm willing to repair it. And I think that
Carol: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: an area we really need a lot more practice on.
Carol: Oh my goodness. Yes.
Danielle: It's, it's the whole, like you need to take accountability conversation we keep having, and it's hard for people. And also accountability looks different for everyone. And so I would rather, because I want to be in the right relationship with this person. Say like, Hey, I'm realizing I might have had a negative impact on you. Perhaps that was not my intention, but what I'm more interested in, I can issue an apology right then and there, but even beyond that. What would help to make this relationship stronger?
How do we move forward from here? Right? It's not just a, what Danielle thinks is the right thing, because the relationship requires two people, at least to be involved in this. I need to know from you as the individual or you as the community, how do we repair, rupture.
Carol: Yeah. Yeah. And going back to what you were saying before it kind of brought to mind the idea that some, you know, you can kind of be right or be in the relationship and probably at many times you can't have both. If you insist on you know, proving your point and demonstrating how you're right.
It's probably going to, you know, you're not gonna come out of that conversation with a strengthened relationship. It's gonna be frayed. And so and even if you do that then, right, that could be harm that you could go back and, and address and repair. But I think we're very I don't know in this culture, but kind of taught, or it's valued. Being right is valued, right? Beating someone in an argument is valued. Apologizing and acknowledging harm is not very valued. It's, or accountability is seen as something like, I have to punish this person.
Danielle: Yeah, it's punitive. Yes, that's exactly how I feel in a lot of cases. But to me, everything that we're talking about comes down to like, am I willing to be vulnerable? Am I willing to be accountable? Not from a punitive standpoint, but again to step in and own my piece of the situation.
Carol: Take responsibility.
Danielle: It is that responsibility, which I find to be quite ironic because there are folks in this country that heavily focus on individual responsibility, right?
And they
Carol: Right. Except for this part,
Danielle: Except for me, I don't have to be accountable at this moment. But you
Carol: else has to be, have to be.
Danielle: get your act
Carol: Those people have to be accountable and responsible.
Danielle: I wanna turn the lens on ourselves in this moment and just be like, Hey, but there were two of us present, or there was a group of us present.
What did we each contribute to this scenario?
Carol: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Danielle: know? But again, that takes the presence of mine and the pause to be able to sort of shift gears for a second and step out of I into, we.
Carol: Right.
Danielle: So there, there's a whole lot there. Yeah, there's a whole lot there. I am also like, sitting with this question of what feels important to the other person?
Carol: Mm.
Danielle: you want to communicate
Carol: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: at the beginning of the conversation? Like, what do you, what do you wanna get out of this? What's the outcome you are hoping for when we finish talking?
Carol: Right, right.
Danielle: Speaking of which, right, so like you asked me this question a minute ago about how I define polarization, and then you didn't give your definition. So Carol, we're gonna come back to that. How do you define it?
Carol: I mean, I guess, I guess my definition actually is pretty similar to yours, right? It's, it's being at very opposite ends and I guess. What feels hard is there being almost like if I have an image of like a pole, there's also feels like there's a gulf in between, right? It's not just like you can walk across a bridge and you can meet.
It's like you've gotta also somehow leap over. Like river Gorge
Danielle: Yeah.
Carol: fall into the middle is the image that comes to mind for me. That really keeps people at either side, right? And, and it makes it really hard to, to come closer,
Danielle: I can picture this image as you say that, and part of my brain is like, but does there have to be a gulf?
Carol: Right? Like build the bridge.
Danielle: Yeah, can we build a bridge? Is the bridge already there and we just don't see it?
Carol: We don't see it, huh? Yeah.
Danielle: to travel a little further downstream to get to the actual bridge. Like right now, we're standing at the chasm.
Carol: Right. Right. And I think the bridge is those skills that you're talking about. Right. It's, it's the and some of them, you know, most of them are actually really, really simple and at the same time can be so hard 'cause they're not our habitual way of being. Because it's as simple as taking a moment and taking a breath.
Danielle: mm-hmm. Yeah.
Carol: all the time. But do we pay attention to that? Not a lot,
Danielle: And using that example that you just gave, even if we're taking that moment to take a breath or we're setting intentions, whatever it is, maybe it is simply just choosing one strategy.
Carol: Right?
Danielle: you have to have 10 under your belt
Carol: Yep. Yep.
Danielle: practice that one for a month in every conversation that you've come to
Carol: Yeah.
Danielle: kids, with your spouse, with your coworkers?
Just keep practicing it, because by the end of that month, maybe that has been embedded enough that you're like, I'm ready for strategy number two. Right. We're gonna move on. I'm gonna add something else.
Carol: Alright, well, as we close out, I'm wondering, so for you, what will be, what will be your strategy that you practice over the next month?
Danielle: Yeah. I think that it is, that's such a good question. And I'm like, as I just said all of this, I'm like, what is the strategy I wanna focus on? I think I want to do more around closing the conversation. That's where I wanna focus. Like I, I am very good, I think, at being intentional, setting those intentions, grounding myself and can still continue to work on. Closing with care in the sense that, thank you so much for sitting with me in this conversation. You know, I know that we may not have gotten to agreement on everything, but it means so much to me that you are willing to have this conversation,
Carol: Mm mm.
Danielle: Because again, if I value being in the right relationship with the person, I have to be able to demonstrate to them I still care about them.
Even if we sat on opposite sides of the issue.
Carol: Yeah. Yeah. I think for me it's the other end. It's the being, being intentional or setting intentions. Waking up out of just automatic, like, what am I, what am I trying to do here? What am I up to? That would be what I wanna pay more attention to and, and focus on
Danielle: Yeah. I love that.
Carol: for next month.
Danielle: different ends, if you will, of the polls on
Carol: Right?
Danielle: because it's a reminder to people we start where we start.
Carol: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: There are gonna be some things that are more intuitive to certain people than they might be to the next person, and that's okay. The idea is, are we leaning into these practices sort of holistically, but begin where you are.
Carol: Yeah. Begin where you are and I love the invitation, just choose one, just focus on one and do that for a while. Don't try to do it all at once 'cause you'll just get overwhelmed. So, yeah. I appreciate that. Well, thank you Danielle, for having this conversation with me. I appreciate every time you come on the show we always have a rich conversation.
Danielle: We certainly do. And I appreciate being invited to, to come join you and to just learn out loud on this topic and sort of it, again, it's forcing me even as someone who works on this, to think more deeply and I always appreciate that.
Carol: Alright, well thank you so much.
Danielle: All right. Take care.
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