Creating Safer Nonprofit Spaces with Paula Brantner
10/6/2025
“Conduct that may be inappropriate, may or may not violate the code of conduct,
but people don’t necessarily feel safe coming forward. They don’t know what
will happen to their careers. They don’t know if they will face retaliation. They
don’t know what the relationships are like with the person who is accused of
wrong-doing.
By and large, they don’t come forward. The reporting system is really where it starts so that people have a safe place to come forward.”
In episode 133 of Nonprofit Mission: Impact, host Carol Hamilton and guest Paula Brantner, workplace fairness consultant and founder of Accountability Ignited, unpack the real challenges nonprofits face in preventing harassment, bullying, and misconduct.
They talk about:
The often-overlooked gaps in nonprofit systems—particularly around reporting mechanisms—and
The false sense of security many mission-driven organizations have about their immunity to these issues.
How to take a proactive, values-based approach rooted in trauma-informed practices,
Why codes of conduct need to include all constituents, including for example sponsors and vendors to be effective
For nonprofit and association leaders seeking to build safer and braver organizational cultures, this episode is full of actionable insight.
Episode highlights:
Inadequate Legal System
[00:08:23]
The legal system is inadequate in addressing workplace harassment led Paula to build preventive systems rather than rely on slow, painful legal remedies.
Reporting Systems as Ground Zero
[00:9:45]
Many organizations stumble not on policies but on creating safe, functional reporting systems. Fear of retaliation or lack of clarity on process silences many.
Small Organizations Are Especially Vulnerable
[00:11:00]
Nonprofits without formal HR support are often unequipped to respond effectively—even when their values center equity and inclusion.
Aligning Codes of Conduct with Values
[00:13:19]
Many policies are lawyer-written and compliance-focused. Paula advocates starting with the organization's values—like anti-racism—and naming behaviors clearly to reflect that commitment.
Moving Beyond Punitive Approaches
[00:15:48]
A code of conduct isn’t about punishment; it’s about setting expectations, preventing harm, and fostering a learning culture.
Codes Should Live Beyond the Employee Handbook
[00:17:01]
Why “good ideas go to die in the employee handbook.” Nonprofits should create outward-facing, living documents relevant to everyone in their ecosystem.
Who's in the Ecosystem? Everyone.
[00:18:00]
Constituents go beyond staff—volunteers, donors, vendors, and event attendees all deserve safe, respectful spaces.
Special Risk Zones: Conferences and Galas
[00:21:00]
Events, especially those with alcohol and informal settings, are hotspots for problematic behavior. Why the “Vegas rules” mentality and power dynamics can amplify risks.
Building Visible, Trained Allies Programs
[00:24:35]
Allies wear ribbons, are trained in active listening and bystander intervention, and help create a culture of care. Over 10% of attendees at one conference were trained allies—creating safety through visibility.
Multiple Reporting Channels Are Key
[00:27:00]
Text, phone, email, anonymous forms— how offering diverse, well-publicized options for reporting increases safety and participation.
Trauma-Informed Listening
[00:38:18]
The importance of believing the person who comes forward, recognizing trauma responses, and supporting them without dictating their next steps.
Power Dynamics and Systemic Barriers
[00:37:00]
Harassment is tied to power imbalances—especially acute in hierarchical fields like academia.
Organizational Excellence: 3 Leading Practices
[00:42:00]
Allies Programs with wide participation
Year-round Codes of Conduct for members, not just staff
Honors & Awards Policies to prevent problematic individuals from being elevated without scrutiny
Proactive Culture-Building as a Strategic Imperative: It can happen anywhere
[00:46:10]
Leaders need to act before a crisis. Not investing in proactive structures leads to reputational harm, legal risk, and broken trust. No organization is immune. Paula urges leaders to put systems in place now—not when a crisis forces the issue.
Guest Bio:
Paula Brantner of Accountability Ignited builds harassment and toxic workplace prevention systems that reflect your values and transform your culture. She works with academic societies, professional organizations, nonprofits, and political organizations on training, reporting systems and policy development to encourage reporting, ensure accountability, and build a harassment-free environment. Prior to founding Accountability Ignited in 2016, Paula spent 18 years (including eight as executive director) with Workplace Fairness, a legal nonprofit that educates workers about their legal rights in the workplace. An employment lawyer for over 30 years, Paula has degrees from UC Law-San Francisco and Michigan State University’s James Madison College. She has a credential from the Association of Workplace Investigators (AWI-CH), and incorporates training in trauma-informed and anti-racism principles and practices into her work.
Important Links and Resources:
Building Inclusive Scientific Communities and Leadership Case Studies from Professional Societies
Related Episodes:
Episode 128 Building psychological safety in nonprofit organizations
Episode 62: Healthy nonprofit organizational cultures, part 1
Episode 63: Healthy nonprofit organizational cultures, part 2
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Carol Hamilton: My guest today on nonprofit Mission Impact is Paula Brantner. Paula is a workplace fairness consultant and founder of accountability ignited. Together we unpack the real challenges nonprofits and associations face in preventing harassment, bullying, and misconduct for nonprofit and association leaders seeking to build safer and braver organizational cultures.
My conversation with Paula is full of actionable insight. As a Me Too survivor, this episode is really personal. This is especially true at this time of intense backlash against making the world as welcoming a place for everyone as it currently is for cisgendered upper middle class white men. While some are bent on making our country as unsafe as possible, for the majority of us, there are still organizations doing the important work of making their spaces braver and more welcoming.
I recently had the pleasure of doing the Washington area Bicycle Association's. 50 states ride in DC. Every avenue in the city is named for a state, and the most famous is Pennsylvania Avenue, since it includes the address for the White House 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue Northwest. The ride reminded me why I really love the city. Even as we were riding by the national guards who are wastefully and unnecessarily deployed in DC to interfere with its home rule, we rode through neighborhoods along the Anacostia River, past famous sites, including the Capitol, as well as the National park that runs through the City Rock Creek, all very beautiful.
When I signed up for the ride, I had to agree to the group's code of conduct. Reading it made me very happy and excited to be a member of the organization and a part of the weekend's ride. The Code reads, quote, “I acknowledge that I exist in a society built on unequal and unjust power structures. I agree that I have a responsibility to interrogate my privileges and use my power to help make WABA spaces increasingly safe, inclusive, and supportive for everyone. I acknowledge that WABA has a zero tolerance policy for racist behavior, sexual harassment, physical or verbal abuse, microaggressions, tokenism, and other harmful actions. I agree that these actions have no place in a supportive, inclusive community and to make it a priority to never harm another person in any of these ways. I acknowledge that my behavior, not my intentions, is what affects the people around me and that it is possible for me to harass or otherwise harm others even when I don't mean to. I agree to be respectful, kind, compassionate, and supportive to those around me in both word and in action. And if someone lets me know that my behavior is harmful to immediately adjust that behavior with the goal of preventing future harm.”
Now there's more included in the code of conduct, but that's a significant portion of it. And this code of conduct did not just come out of nowhere and is not just nice to have. It was enacted because of the exclusive and harmful behavior that really used to be the norm at most. Biking events, behavior and comments that were made to women, people of color, and those with additional marginalized identities, which made them feel unwelcome and targeted. And unfortunately, these unwelcoming behaviors are still too common in the wider biking community. As Anne Hilb said on episode 36 of nonprofit Mission Impact, your organizational culture is defined by the worst behavior that you tolerate and allow.
So having to actively say yes to this code of conduct made me feel more welcome at the event where I knew that the majority of participants would likely still be men, mostly because I knew they had to say yes to it, as well as Paula and I talk about codes such as these are really just a first good step. And there's so much more to ensure that you have systems in place to handle harmful behavior in a trauma-informed way. We also explore the overlooked gaps in the nonprofit systems, particularly around reporting mechanisms and the unfortunate false sense of security many mission-driven organizations have about their immunity to these issues. How to take a proactive values-based approach, rooted in trauma-informed care, and why codes of conduct need to include all constituents, including, for example, sponsors and vendors to be truly effective. So let's dive into the conversation.
So welcome, Paula. Welcome to Nonprofit Mission Impact.
Paula Brantner: Thank you, Carol. It's really great to be here today.
Carol: So I'd like to start out each conversation with a question about. Why do you do what you do? What's your motivation? What's the story behind your why?
Paula: Well, I started out my career as a lawyer working on harassment, discrimination, and other workplace legal issues, and I found that over time I, I came to believe that the legal system was really challenged. Particularly as it related to sexual harassment, that the process itself was worse than the remedy and it would often take several years to resolve. So that was kind of what got me going, and I was a nonprofit executive director for eight years. And in the nonprofit world for over 20 years, and when I decided I was ready for a change and wanted to start consulting, that was the, the motivating factor to kind, which kind of got me started in terms of doing this work.
Carol: And you help building on that career. You help organizations address workplace harassment by creating safer professional environments including developing codes of conduct, but I'm sure that's just one aspect of it. What are a few things that you think are really the most important for nonprofit leaders to know about preventing workplace harassment?
Paula: Well, the first thing is that I think a lot of organizations have codes of conduct. They have policies and they have training, and sometimes those are mandated by law, but any HR person will tell you those are best practices, and I think where groups fall down. Potentially is when it comes to reporting conduct that may be inappropriate, may or may not violate the code of conduct, but people don't necessarily feel safe coming forward.
Paula: They don't know what will happen to their careers. They don't know if they will face retaliation. They don't know what the relationships are like with the person who is accused of wrongdoing, and so by and large, they don't come forward. And so in my work, the reporting system is really where it starts in terms of ensuring that people have a safe place to come forward.
Carol: Yeah. And I mean for a lot of organizations they may not even come within the, those compliance 'cause they're so small. They may not even have an hour department. It may be a paragraph in an employee handbook. But that's it. So yes, there are a lot of organizations with not a lot of resources and so obviously not a lot of really know-how of kind of how to, how to.
Carol: Navigate these kinds of really complicated situations, even though their mission might well be, you know, in support of any of the groups that are typically targeted by harassment.
Paula: That's right Carol. And you touched on a couple of different things that I think are important, which is that if you're a small organization you may not have any things set up, or if you do, it may entail reporting to the very person who is causing you harm.
Paula: Mm. So if someone in senior, senior leadership, for example, uses their power and their status to harass or bully someone, the only person you can report to is that person or someone very close to that person on the management team. Then you're just not gonna come forward and do that. And then the other thing that you mentioned, I think is really important is an organization's values.
Paula: And people may think, well, I am a progressive organization, or I'm doing good in the world, or, you know, I do X. So of course. We would never, you know, want to harm someone, but they don't necessarily have the processes and symptoms as systems rather to build in those values to make sure those values are always honored.
Paula: And that's where some organizations fall down because they think they're immune to these types of issues and then something happens and they find out they're not, and they're not prepared to deal with it.
Carol: What are some initial steps that smaller organizations can take to set up some systems that would actually work?
Paula: Well, the first step I think is to ensure you have a code of conduct and that it not be the bare minimum required by law. Some people, for example, have an anti-harassment policy but it doesn't go any further to either address bullying which if it's not on the basis of any protected characteristics such as race.
Paula: Or sex or religion, then it's not protected under law by and large. So some groups have a policy that was written by lawyers somewhere but it doesn't reflect their values. It may have been written by a defense lawyer who is only concerned about the organization being sued rather than affirmatively putting forward the values that it stands for.
Paula: And so when I create a code of conduct for an organization. We always start with the affirmative values and the affirmative behaviors that the organization wants to put forward out there as part of their identity. So start, can
Carol: You gimme an example of what that might look like? Like if you, let's, let's, let's say you know, one of our values is to be an anti-racist organization.
Carol: Mm-hmm. Well, how might that show up in that code of conduct?
Paula: Yeah. Well, I think the first thing, you know, I always start with the organization's mission statements and some, some mission statements. Organizations have labored very hard and long to create. I, I laugh because I help people with that,
Carol: and I try to have it not be labored and long, but
Paula: Right, right.
Paula: Yeah. Yeah. It's always, you know, almost always a long process. So you know, once you've done that. You know, for example, I just worked on one where we dealt with the issue of microaggressions and explaining microaggressions and encouraging ways of communicating that stay away from stereotypes and microaggressions.
Paula: And so, you know, that may be something that. You know, a concrete example in an organization devoted to anti-racism is looking at all of the things that comprise that and making sure that. You know, it's communicated in terms of affirmative behaviors, but if someone, if the line has been crossed, there, there are ways to come forward and say, Hey, you know, this it says here, we care about these things, but it seems like in this situation, someone did not live up to that.
Paula: You know, and I wanna wait to address that. And it doesn't always have to be a punitive process, which a lot of people, you know, picture violating a code of conduct as if we have to punish someone. It's more like, how can we do better? How can we prevent this from happening to other people in the future?
Paula: And how can it be a learning and growing experience?
Carol: So those codes of conduct, do they typically would, would they live within an employee handbook or a volunteer handbook or would they be something that is created separately?
Paula: Well I always create them separately. And I work with a lot of professional associations and academic societies where this is something that applies to their members. And so we figure out how to publicize it far and wide, starting with the website so that it's outward facing. You know, and there are people external to the organization who can see what this organization stands for and what they expect from their, you know, their staff and their members.
Paula: And so, you know, I. I find that employee handbooks are where good ideas go to die. You know, you know people, right? You, you might
Carol: read it on your first day when you're required to sign it, and then you forget about it, right? Until you're like, well, how, what did they say about how I have to recount and report my vacation?
Carol: Then you go back and look at it. But one, one thing that, yeah, that, that you said about, you know, it applies to, you know, in, in the case of professional organizations, associations, it applies to their members. And, but I would think more broadly with any kind of nonprofit, you know, your constituency doesn't.
Carol: Just entail your, your volunteers and your staff. It's everybody that is really in your ecosystem. And so who are all those people who might, you know, might be at an event you're hosting or a part of a training program or any of the things Who would expect? That, that you're offering a safe space or you know, a, I don't know.
Carol: Mm-hmm. The safe space, braver space, whatever you wanna call it. But that, that, that you have some sense that I'm gonna be able to walk in here and, and not be harassed and so, mm-hmm. That makes, I think it makes a great point that the organization needs to think of it in a much broader way than, you know, the folks on the, really on the inside of the organization.
Paula: Absolutely. And I work with a number of organizations on their annual meetings.
Carol: Yeah, and that's a great example where, you know, I, I worked for a pretty large association for a while, and you know, we went from worrying about the 70 staff and the 20 people on the board to 10,000 people for a week.
Paula: Mm-hmm.
Paula: Yes, definitely. I offer meeting safety services and I work with a number of organizations either on site. I just returned from Chicago yesterday, working with a group on site or virtually. Where we have several ways that people can report and I can communicate with the organization about things that have been brought to our attention.
Paula: So yeah, it does include everyone in your space. And typically my codes of conduct try to name as best we can. All of those people are vendors and contractors . Those are two areas that have been. Quite problematic because most laws do not cover people who are not employees, and so there hasn't.
Paula: Really been a way for those folks to come forward. And so those are, you know, some of the people, you know, speakers at conferences sponsors, vendors, donors. That's been another area where some nonprofits have faced harassment of their staff, working with major donors, for example, where there's a lot of money at stake.
Paula: But and someone's trying to, to cultivate that relationship and, and bring in those dollars, oh, excuse me.
Carol: Take your time.
Paula: Yeah. Where, someone is trying to cultivate that relationship and bring in those dollars and may feel that relationship is dependent on acquiescing to harassment or bullying, and so we want to make it so that people have a way to safely bring that behavior to someone's attention and that the organization has a way to do something about it when that happens.
Carol: Yeah, I mean, I'm just thinking about all of the events that organizations sponsor and how, you know, kind of. Rife, they are for problematic behavior. There's often alcohol involved. If you think of a, you know, an organization doing their fundraising gala or mm-hmm. You know, the instance of the, you know, oftentimes one-on-one meetings with major donors or at a conference where there's all of the official conference.
Carol: You know the agenda, but oftentimes there's lots and lots and lots of events that get created around them. Lots of parties, happy hours, you know, sponsored events and, and people sometimes. I mean, I've, I've heard lots of jokes in the association space around, you know, the, well, what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas, whether they're actually in Vegas or not.
Carol: But people kind of behave, like if they're at a conference, anything goes. And so say more about. What goes into that process and kind of what, what guidelines or or structures are you setting up so that it doesn't have all those problems? Or you can deal with them. Right. I've been to enough, I've been to enough events to know, right.
Paula: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Anyone who's been in professional spaces for some time, I'm sure has stories, right. You know, whether anything has happened to them personally or not, and, and you really anticipated when talking about Vegas 'cause. I educate all my clients about Vegas rules and you know that mindset that when people get away from home anything goes Yep.
Paula: And you add alcohol, you add hotel rooms, you add offsite events, and you, you can even see people taking advantage of people who are there to network to further their careers, to look for jobs. In my academic conferences, you have people looking for PhD slots spots in research labs for, you know, postdoc work.
Paula: And you often have a very. A small number of senior people control the fates of a lot of people under them. And if you don't, if you don't have the right kind of relationship with one of the five people in the world that do the research that you wanna do, you know, you pretty much have to start over or leave academia entirely.
Paula: And so the conferences are a central part of that. Networking and reputation building and presenting your research and making an impression. And then if something happens at that meeting where your safety has been violated, you have been harassed and you know, it impacts your ability to even be involved with this organization, which may be at the heart of your professional identity and essential to the advancement of your career.
Paula: Then it can be really difficult and challenging. And so some of the things that we put in place you know, we have the code of conduct. We publicize it everywhere. You know, we have big phone core signs. We have to put it in the mobile app with a QR code. We have it announced from the stage at the very first session where someone gets up and talks about all the announcements.
Paula: We put it in daily updates. And one of the most important things that I've worked on in recent years is that we have allies programs. Hmm. And allies are a group of trained individuals. They are trained in active listening, so they know what to do if someone comes to them after a traumatic event.
Paula: And they're also trained in bystander intervention if something is unfolding in front of them, rather than being paralyzed and not knowing what to do or how to intervene, that they will have the appropriate training to, to intervene in some way, and they're given strategies and practice in doing that.
Paula: And they walk around the conference with ribbons identifying them as an ally so people know that there are people. Who are safe to go to and talk to about some, something that has happened to them. And one of my clients had a meeting earlier this month and there were over 10% of the attendees.
Paula: That was walking around with those ribbons. Wow. Wow. And so they really are the eyes and ears of the conference, you know? And it's really powerful to see all those people. And you know, sometimes it's hard to prove a negative that, you know, someone wasn't harassed because of this. Sure. But I think it definitely sends a message.
Paula: That there are people in this organization who care about what's happening, who care about those values and are willing to devote their time to be trained and help other people. And so I think that that is one of the most important things that we do in terms of. Making sure everybody knows there is a way to come forward if something happens.
Carol: And typically if something does happen and somebody does need to come forward, what are, what are some of the mechanisms that are, are typically part of that process where, you know, where folks are, want, need to report and, and, and man, you know, come forward during, during a meeting or, or in another situation.
Paula: Yeah, so one of, I think the most important things is to have multiple reporting channels, and so I work with the organization to set up and publicize. Part of publicizing the code is publicizing the reporting mechanism because as I said earlier. That's where things often fall down. Right. You know, and people read the language of the code and said, yeah, well, sounds great.
Paula: Yeah. But what do we do if something happens? And so we make sure that. People know exactly what to do when something happens and it's something the allies are trained on and something that the staff is aware of. And you know, we have the reporting form right on all of the publicity that I just described.
Paula: And then you have a phone number. You have, so someone could phone or text. You have an email address if someone wants to know, send an email. We have a reporting form and if someone wants to fill out the form and give us all the information that we would typically ask for, they can do that. But even that does not obligate them to initiate a formal process.
Paula: It's just one of the ways that they can let us. No, and they can even do so anonymously, and that's something that doesn't necessarily happen in a lot of workplaces. But it, you know, it's hard to be anonymous if it's a one-on-one interaction. Obviously the person's going to know who submitted a report.
Paula: But if it's something that happened in a larger room or to a larger group of people, or if there were several witnesses, then it is a great way for someone to come forward, provide information, be a witness, help the person who was the target, or they may be the target themselves, but they don't have to reveal their identity.
Carol: And how about, how about for the person who was the target and they do wanna come forward? What, what are the typical steps?
Paula: Yeah, so the first thing is to use one of these reporting channels. And when I am on site at a conference, I have a private room where people can come speak to me confidentially and tell me about what happened.
Paula: And, you know, one of the major benefits of having me on. The site is that I am an independent person and I am only there to work with these individuals and help monitor what happens on site. Because conference staff, you know, they're just running around. They have so many things to do, so many crises, and they've gotta be in this room at this time and they've gotta do this and that.
Paula: And so staff and,
Carol: And every major volunteer, I mean, you know, when I've been at conferences, the board chair has somebody following them with the script of every, every event that they have to go to. And, you know, so all the people that you might go to in a more informal setting, you know, don't have the bandwidth to really even deal with anything like this.
Carol: And Pro doesn't have the training either.
Paula: Right, exactly. They don't have the bandwidth, they don't have the training and it can just, you know, you can almost feel their heart sinking when someone comes to them. Sure. Because they're like, what do I do? I do. And how can I do it? Do
Carol: I wanna, I wanna, I wanna be helpful and I don't even know where to begin.
Carol: So what are some of the things, things that help you, you know, be someone who's really prepared for that interaction?
Paula: Mm-hmm. Well, I, you know, I draw upon everything I've had in my over 30 year career. That kinda leads me to this point whether it's sort of knowledge of, or how harassment and discrimination and bullying work.
Paula: I've been trained, in trauma informed approaches, in terms of being able to talk to someone who has experienced some trauma and harm and help them navigate their next steps, help them figure out what they want to do. It's not what I want for them to do. I want them to go through the thought processes.
Paula: Thought processes of what would make them, if they could ever wave a magic wand after something has happened to them, what would they like to see the outcome be? And it doesn't mean, as I said earlier, it doesn't necessarily. Punishment, it may be a conversation. They may want them to just, you know, the equivalent of a no contact order, you know, to just like this person stay away from me and not interact with me.
Paula: Or, you know, there, there may be it may be that the organization needs to set up policies to deal with, you know, something that has happened in the future. It's too late for this meeting. But next time there needs to be something in place. And one thing I'm seeing a lot of right now, as you can imagine, is politically related conflict and, you know, particularly at conferences where there are presentations, if there's some political content in the slides or you know, a speaker says something from the stage that makes someone very uncomfortable or makes someone angry what, how do you deal with that as an organization? And, you know, a lot of organizations they wanna have.
Paula: Free speech and, and not put too many restrictions on what people say. And you know, particularly in academic groups, there's academic freedom involved, but there are groups that, again, they don't want things happening from their stages and the slides and the presentations that are officially tied to their organization to not reflect their value.
Paula: You know, for example, I worked with an organization where there were some offensive images in a slide, and you know, that happened in the presentation. There wasn't anything that we could do then, but the organization also had a virtual conference. Where people uploaded their slides after the event and gave a short summary of their research.
Paula: And so we were able to replace those slides before the virtual event so that they weren't sort of recorded in perpetuity, you know, associated with that conference. And so there are sometimes things we can do after the fact too. Ensure that although you can't undo the original harm, you can make sure it doesn't happen again.
Carol: So you mentioned a couple different things that I'd like to go back to. First you talked about just how harassment and bullying work. I think most people would think that they have an intuitive understanding of that. But I'm wondering like, what are some of the fundamentals of, of those instances?
Paula: Mm-hmm. Well, you know, I find a lot of people have had trainings, you know, in their own workplaces or, you know, they've been in something that's required them to have, you know, the obligatory mandatory sexual harassment training, which always like
Carol: blows my mind that that's what it's called. Because it sounds like you're being taught how to sexually harass people.
Carol: Right? Right, exactly. And I have managed to work, I have managed to work for 40 years and never sit through one of those. Because I have worked at such small organizations.
Paula: Yeah. Yeah. And that, you know, that's a really good point that some organizations are so small that they either, like we said earlier, don't have the HR staff or someone who could do that or they, they're not legally required to have it, and so they don't, you know, it costs money and it takes time away and you know, people think, you know, again, they don't need it. Their mission is, I've seen parodies of them. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. So I think, you know, there are the basic you know, legal requirements of, you know, what is a hostile environment and what is quid pro quo harassment and, and how do you define all of those things.
Paula: And like we were talking about things like microaggressions and systemic issues, you know, and I think. People think they might know that, but we often kind of take people through that. Depending on, you know, what level of expertise they have already. Because some have been very committed to this work throughout their careers, and so they have gone to many of these trainings and factor training other people on it.
Paula: And so how can we sort of. I think, you know, in my training the most important thing is to practice and I give people real situations that have happened and say, you know, what would you do in this situation? How would you intervene if you were there? How would you respond to it after the fact? If you learned about it?
Paula: What if it happened to you? How, what are some ways that you might kind of stop it in its tracks? And so we try to give people all the tools to respond to those things so that even if it starts, you can interrupt it as it's happening.
Carol: But I would imagine that one of the key ingredients is often a power imbalance.
Paula: Absolutely. Absolutely. And some research I saw several months back, which, you know, surprised me in some ways, in other ways it didn't, was that harassment in academia was second only to the military. Oof. And you know, we've all heard stories about, you know, what happens in the military. So but it really does tie back to the power imbalance and that academia is very hierarchical and that, you know, as I said earlier, the person at the top you know.
Paula: Can hold the fate of a lot of people in their hands and determine whether or not they have a career. And so if they are a bully who has trouble mentoring someone if they discriminate in how they treat different people whom they're evaluating and if. They harass someone that can impact certainly their career advancement or whether they have a career in this field at all.
Carol: Yeah. And then, and so the other thing that you talked about was when somebody does come forward and you're helping them talk through and explain what happened taking a trauma informed approach, what, what, what does that mean?
Paula: Well, it starts by listening with. By projecting that you believe them.
Paula: You know, you don't look at them skeptically, you don't treat them like it's an interrogation. You let them tell their story. And if you've experienced trauma, you may not be able to tell things in a linear timeline. You may have to stop and process. You may be, you know, crying or. Emotionally overcome that, you need to pause.
Paula: And so recognizing that all of these things are common and they don't reflect truth, they reflect, you know, where this person is at and this moment in time and. If appropriate, you can later investigate and get to a factual determination of what happened and hear all the sides of the situation, including the accused and any witnesses that the accused suggests.
Paula: But right now, when you are interviewing someone, your goal is to. Actively listen. Let them tell their story. Acknowledge the signs of trauma and help them decide how to navigate forward, giving them all their options and not telling them what to do. Like, here's how you have to respond. It's like, here are some things that you can do with this, and you know, what makes sense to you, and you don't have to decide on the spot.
Paula: You know, another issue I have with the legal system is the statute of limitations, and it's like you have to make decisions before you are emotionally ready to do that. Or people think that if you wait a long time to report something that it didn't happen. I mean, those two things are often inversely related.
Paula: Yeah. You know, the longer it takes you to come forward and report the more traumatic, the initial event. So, you know, and we've seen this with some of the, you know, kind of the me too cases that have come forward, or even things involving, you know, religious leaders, Catholic priests, that sort of thing where people.
Paula: These statute of limitations had to be extended because we knew that there were people that had experienced certain harm and allowed them to come forward regardless of how long it was. Had been, was a way to address that harm.
Carol: Yeah, absolutely. Well, what about the, what about organizations that are doing, really doing a good job of doing everything that they can to cultivate and foster that, that safe environment?
Carol: What, what are some characteristics or some, some. A story maybe of an organization that's really, you know, really doing all the things.
Paula: Yeah. Well, I will return back to the group I was talking about earlier with the Allies program. When we first started with the Allies program four years ago, we trained around 25 people the first time around and over four years.
Paula: The Allies program has grown to over a hundred people who have been trained. Wow. And because people attend different meetings, you know, not the same a hundred people will be there every time. Sure. But last meeting we identified over 70 who had been trained and registered for the meeting, which like I said, was over 10% of the attendees.
Paula: Yeah. And so developing the Allies program and growing the numbers every year I think is a really important sign of both the organizational commitment because people see. You know, more and more people with ribbons over time. Mm-hmm. And maybe they look around and say, Hmm, maybe I shouldn't say that.
Paula: Or deep breath, I'm surrounded by people with ribbons, you know, what does that mean? You know, because So but ribbon's for a good thing.
Carol: Ribbon's for a good cause.
Paula: Exactly. Exactly. You know, another thing I think is useful is what I call a year round code. Mm. It's not just a meeting code of conduct, but it is a code of conduct for that organization which. Determine which governs any interaction between two or more members of the association or society. And you know, that's really important because, you know, there are things that happen. Not at meetings. Sure. And we also know of situations where the institution didn't take appropriate action or took steps to cover something up. And that impacts the organization's members, one, you know, who stays in that profession rather than being sort of forced out by this behavior. Or having it carry over into the meeting setting, right? Like, you know, someone's, you know, being harassed or bullied at home, and then they come to the meeting and someone's kind of falling around and, you know, causing trouble or engaging in misconduct. So, the organizations that have the strongest commitment to that, you know, will accept reports year round, accept conduct that has happened, not just in the organizational spaces. Another aspect of this is an honors and awards policy, and a lot of organizations have gotten into trouble over time by giving someone a major award. You know, putting them in you know, a plenary speaker or some position of providence, you know, the organizational leadership and then finding out after they've done so when they've been elevated to that position of power, someone comes forward and says. Dude, why did you put this person in this position? Because, you know, they've done this thing. And so the organizations I work with have an honors and awards policy. So, and when they, if it's a self nomination or a nomination by other people, then they have to attest that they don't currently or formerly have any kind of process or report. That concerns conduct that is prohibited by the code of conduct. It's a self-disclosed affirmative disclosure that there's nothing going on, you know, in the rest of their life that is similar to the code of conduct process. And if they're nominated by someone else. Then, you know, often it's a surprise, you know, they don't know until the moment that they're going to be, you know, given this award. But the organizations check with me to see if I'm aware or I have any current reports from you know, concerning this individual. So I think, you know, those three things, the Allies program, the year round code and the honors and awards policy kind of round out what happens at the meetings.
Carol: So just to round us out on this conversation, what's one question that you would have nonprofit leaders ask themselves if they wanted to be more strategic in thinking about all the issues that you've raised?
Paula: Well, I think it, it's, it's kind of an anti question, which is I. If you don't think this will happen to you, if you're questioning whether this is necessary, because it would never happen here to answer that with, it can happen anywhere at any time. And so it's just so much more important to be proactive and put these processes in place so that if something happens, you know immediately what to do. Then it is to try to respond after the fact. When you're scrambling, you don't have the training, you don't have the resources, you just dunno what to do. And maybe you're engaged in crisis communication. And if you think it you know, it's, it's a penny wise pound foolish thing where you think of, oh, you know, I'm not gonna pay a consultant like me to do something in advance. Dealing with this after the fact, whether it's a, a you know, a harm to the reputation of your organization, it's a lawsuit or it's crisis communications that will, that will be a lot more to deal with than if you proactively try to think about this in advance.
Carol: Well, and I think for so many organizations, doing those things proactively is a way for them to live out their values. So.
Paula: Absolutely, you know, putting all of these things in place. And, you know, my business is called accountability ignited, because ultimately what I want to do is institute a system of accountability. You know, creating the code of conduct, doing the training and allies programs, the reporting, the investigation and determining what happens after that investigation, what the consequences are. Should be. And then having some kind of sustaining process where you keep building on it year after year and, you know, you keep iterating, you keep looking at what has happened and how you can do more. Then I think all of those things work as an integrated process, working in tandem to build your culture and make sure of that. Anyone in your spaces knows that this is important to you and it's highly visible, and that the organization just won't just won't put up with these kinds of things happening. They're going to do something about it. They're not gonna sweep it under the rug. And, you know, another thing I offer is, you know, being independent, you know, I don't know who anyone is. I don't know who the most powerful people are. I can take action and make recommendations based on. What I find in my investigation, what I find the conduct to be, and so a lot of organizations, you know, whether they're not trained in how to do an investigation or being able to separate out all the extraneous external information they have about someone and their impression of the parties. Separating that out from the evidence that you have about what's happened, and most organizations are just not in a place to do that.
Carol: Yeah. Well, thank you so much. Thank you, Paula.
Paula: Thank you for the work that you do. Thank
Carol: You.
Paula: Thank you. It's my pleasure. And I, I thank you for having me here today.
[Brief music]
Carol: Thank you for listening to this episode. I really appreciate the time you spend with me and my guests. You can find out how to connect with my guests, their full bio, the full transcript of our conversation, as well as any links and resources mentioned during the show. In the show notes@gracesocialsector.com slash mission impact.
Carol: I'd like to thank Isabelle Strauss Riggs for her support in editing and production, as well as Charde Carbonell of a hundred ninjas for her production support. Please take a minute to rate and review nonprofit mission impact on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. It helps other people find the show and we really appreciate it. And until next time, thank you for everything you do to contribute and make an impact.
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